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Post by Coaster on Jun 18, 2013 18:54:31 GMT -5
This topic has been brought up a couple times recently in other boards, and I'm surprised to see nobody's addressed it on the D&D.
So a certain ethnic group, religion, gender identity, minority group, interest group, or what have you has undergone a history, however long or short it may be, of suffering from discrimination. In recent years, since equality has become much more valued from a political standpoint, this has started to lead to a phenomenon known as reverse discrimination, in which employers, schools, etc. "even the playing field" by actively slanting it in the opposite direction, be it through hyper-feminism, prohibiting public gatherings related to dominant religions or ideologies, etc. In some cases, it gets so bad that an employer claiming to be "equal-opportunity" pretty much means that they're only hiring someone who identifies themselves in a minority group.
Is this type of phenomenon deserved if a particular group has gone through a long period of discrimination, or is it unnecessary revenge against people who died before we were born? Recompense for specific events is one thing, followed by general equality, but I personally think it often swings too far.
I'm probably the type to complain because I'm a Christian, Caucasian, North American male born of the same, which means that in many cases, I'm essentially discriminated against because my heritage is composed of "acceptable targets"--after all, "my people", in any sense, have historically been in power and done some horrible things--but I'd like to see what all of you think.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2013 19:05:02 GMT -5
I don't think I can say much re: affirmative action, as I know fairly little about it beyond talking points (i.e. other folks' interpretations), so I don't entirely understand how/why the whole thing is set up. I'll give more of my thoughts later on, I guess, if the topic calls for 'em.
Out of curiosity--and not to be rude by any means--what have you experienced in terms of discrimination?
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Post by M is for Morphine on Jun 18, 2013 20:58:46 GMT -5
I think part of the problem is that people continue to treat racism as something that happened before they were born. Yeah. Same resume for the study, just with different names. Gonna need you to expand on this and cite, please. Anyway, I'm white, straight, and cisgendered. When I read social justice discourse, sometimes I feel left out and sad. People get mean, discredit me for my race, etc. But the thing is... being straight and cisgendered gets me sassed. Being gay and transsexual sometimes gets you KILLED. Being discriminated against for being white makes me sad on the internet, it doesn't cost me my job, my livelyhood, or my freedom. It DOES suck and of course you are allowed to be upset about it, but it's very ridiculous to try and say that the discrimination against you is equivalent to theirs. The US department of justice regularly releases numbers about the demographics of arrest, and you may be surprised to learn that while White, Hispanic, and Black drivers are pulled over at a similar rate (9%) an African American driver is three times more likely to have their person or vehicle searched, three times as likely to be handcuffed or arrested, and 10% less likely to be let off with just a warning. They're four times as likely to have force used against them by officers. Once convicted of a crime, they receive sentences that are 10% longer than the sentences white people receive for THE SAME CRIMES. Once they're out of prison, they can look forward to being paid drastically less than white ex cons. White kids are actually more likely to smoke weed than black kids, but black kids are drastically more likely to be arrested for it. So, in closing, has the fight for equality swung too far in the other direction? Friend, we have not achieved equality let alone overshot it. |
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Post by Coaster on Jun 18, 2013 22:43:50 GMT -5
I don't think I can say much re: affirmative action, as I know fairly little about it beyond talking points (i.e. other folks' interpretations), so I don't entirely understand how/why the whole thing is set up. I'll give more of my thoughts later on, I guess, if the topic calls for 'em. Out of curiosity--and not to be rude by any means--what have you experienced in terms of discrimination? Much the same; I haven't experienced much of it myself, but I've heard the concept in lectures, second-hand, and a couple times on the forum, so I wanted to see what everyone thought of it. Gonna need you to expand on this and cite, please. I've heard several (unverified) examples from word-of-mouth, and I've been close enough to some that were organized to discover that it's at best a real hassle to get the OK for public events that advocate a particular religion or make it a significant theme. Online searches (both academic databases and Google) seem to echo the general pattern I hear from (evidently biased, but still) pulpit reports, "believe whatever you want, just don't let anyone else see". A page discussing anti-Muslim discrimination in EuropeA news report with some specific examples and dialogueAn article that describes some recent historical back-and-forthIt DOES suck and of course you are allowed to be upset about it, but it's very ridiculous to try and say that the discrimination against you is equivalent to theirs. Never tried to say that it was equivalent, but was trying to say that discrimination, whether reverse or any other type, is going too far by definition. As you put it here, So, in closing, has the fight for equality swung too far in the other direction? Friend, we have not achieved equality let alone overshot it. it's still small pickings compared to types that have festered over a longer period, and it's important to consider whether this is even a significant issue or just a word of caution. Again, I'm just trying to see what people think about it. And I figured putting an opinion in the first post would be a good way to get the discussion going.  |
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Post by M is for Morphine on Jun 19, 2013 2:33:10 GMT -5
The first link does not fit in with your claim of reverse discrimination. There's a lot of vicious anti-Muslim sentiment in Europe, truly, but it's aimed at minorities. It's pretty disingenuous to refer to Islam in Belgium, France, the Netherlands, etc. as "dominate religion". They make up only 6% of the population in Belgium, 3% in France, and I haven't run the numbers on the other countries listed in the article but I imagine they are similar. It feels like you're using prejudice against Muslims to enhance a narrative of Christian persecution. I mean, you roll them into the same 'dominant religion' group and don't bother to specify, but they only make up 2.6% of Americans and Canadians. The 'dominant religion' is unmistakably Christianity in the West (67% of Canadians, 72% of Americans, 50% of Britain, 45% of France, etc.). The second one does not fit your claim of prohibiting public gatherings. I can't read the last one. : / |
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Post by Coaster on Jun 19, 2013 9:41:40 GMT -5
The first link does not fit in with your claim of reverse discrimination. There's a lot of vicious anti-Muslim sentiment in Europe, truly, but it's aimed at minorities. It's pretty disingenuous to refer to Islam in Belgium, France, the Netherlands, etc. as "dominate religion". They make up only 6% of the population in Belgium, 3% in France, and I haven't run the numbers on the other countries listed in the article but I imagine they are similar. It feels like you're using prejudice against Muslims to enhance a narrative of Christian persecution. I mean, you roll them into the same 'dominant religion' group and don't bother to specify, but they only make up 2.6% of Americans and Canadians. The 'dominant religion' is unmistakably Christianity in the West (67% of Canadians, 72% of Americans, 50% of Britain, 45% of France, etc.). The second one does not fit your claim of prohibiting public gatherings. I can't read the last one. : / To be fair, that was just a sampling of articles, and making a search yields plenty more. (As for the last one, it came up from Academic Search Complete and I didn't know you needed credentials for the permalink. It's about religious clubs in schools and how the policy has cycled from welcome to banned to welcome and such.) As far as dominant religions go, Islam is still second-most practiced worldwide (about 20% according to another quick search--feel free to conduct your own in more detail and verify or disprove), so I felt it qualified as a dominant religion in that sense. I only wanted to point out that even if Christianity is more dominant in the West, it's not the only major religion that faces pressure. The second article is more a dialogue on claims of discrimination in the West against Christians (as you mentioned, the area's majority religion) in general. Of course, I had only made a quick search, and if you're interested, I'd be glad to see what you find out for any side of the discussion. If you'll give me a chance to backpedal, the intro post was mostly hypothetical anyways, and it's good to hear that it's sparked interest. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2013 9:44:19 GMT -5
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Post by Komori on Jun 19, 2013 11:14:53 GMT -5
Coaster, you've got to take these cases on an area basis. Chinese people make up a majority of the planet's population, but they're still a small minority in the States, so you wouldn't be able to call Chinese discrimination in, say, Iowa as discriminating against a "dominant group."  Same with Islam. It can be the 2nd most practiced religion, but discrimination of it in the Western world is not an example of "reverse discrimination." |
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Post by Nimras on Jun 20, 2013 22:24:00 GMT -5
Reverse discrimination? It seems to me (and I may be misunderstanding you here) that you're arguing that any steps to combat discrimination, are in and of themselves discriminatory and therefore wrong. I say we'll have that talk when women of all races and not-white males make the same amount of money as their white male peers, have equal in proportion in population representation in sciences and government, when the idea that cosplay doesn't not equal consent is considered obvious, and when I can log into a video game with a female name and avatar and not be told "tits or get out." Until that time, extra protections are needed if you're not a white cis male. |
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Post by Coaster on Jun 20, 2013 22:57:59 GMT -5
I understand; looking back, I definitely should have phrased the opening post better. Mostly I was thinking about situations in which a given case has the same magnitude in the opposite direction, which are obviously few in number if existent as yet, and I wanted to find out what people thought about the concept.
But, it's clear the general concensus is that the concept of reverse discrimination is a non-issue in society as it is, at least until the field really is level.
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Post by Komori on Jun 20, 2013 23:32:51 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm not really feeling any sympathy for claims of reverse-discrimination, unless somewhere they were utterly blatant, which I've never heard of. And most of the time, it just seems to cause really silly things to be said. Like people going, "Why do we have a Black History Month? Why can't we have a White History Month?" (To which I would reply, "How about all 12 years of public school history being white history month? :/") You know, just... silly things like that. Also, I'm a Christian, and I don't understand why Christians would complain about being discriminated against. o__o Like guys, the Bible says in Matthew 5:10-12 that "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven" So the case is either: A) the persecution and unfairness towards Christians is all false perceptions, or B) it's real and you get awesome presents for it in Heaven. Either way, complaining isn't the proper response. It's as if these people don't even read the Bible!  |
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Post by Thorn on Jun 21, 2013 1:11:46 GMT -5
Where I live; if a Maori and Pakeha student with the exact same qualifications apply for the last spot in a uni course or whatever, they have to accept the Maori student (or so I've heard).
As unlikely as this situation may sound, I guess it could be somewhat of a problem...
If we're also referring to the thing I was talking about the other week, Coaster; yes, I suppose it can be unnecessary revenge. Though, not all this stuff happened before we were born. A lot of the traditional discrimination (against LGBT people may be the most apparent, I suppose) still happens today.
EDIT FROM A BILLION YEARS DOWN THE TRACK: I sound super ignorant here arggggh. I understand the reasons behind the first section of my post far better now, just saying. =P
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2013 10:55:28 GMT -5
Also, I'm a Christian, and I don't understand why Christians would complain about being discriminated against. o__o Like guys, the Bible says in Matthew 5:10-12 that "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven" So the case is either: A) the persecution and unfairness towards Christians is all false perceptions, or B) it's real and you get awesome presents for it in Heaven. Either way, complaining isn't the proper response. It's as if these people don't even read the Bible! I can see why Christians would complain. It's because you have crazy people like Fred Phelps using their beliefs to justify something hateful, and thus ignorant people would say "oh, ALL Christians must be like that". All persecutions, whether they are against Christians or any other group, are based upon false perceptions. That's why I think the goal should be not to try to tackle "reverse discrimination" rather than other discrimination, but to stop ALL discrimination and spread the ideals of love for everyone, and how everyone is equally worthy and good. When you said "complaining isn't the proper response", I'm not sure if you meant just Christians. If you did, then I'm kind of on the fence about what you said there. But I'm just going to point out that if you belong to group undergoing serious discrimination like Native Americans, homosexuals, Muslims etc., than yes, complaining IS the proper response. Otherwise no one will do anything about it. Also, even if you believe that it doesn't matter since you're going to Heaven, you should still complain since you don't want it to continue for future generations after you're gone. |
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Post by Avery on Jun 21, 2013 11:19:01 GMT -5
Sae, I can see your point on the root of why Christians might think they're being discriminated against-- but overall I must agree with Komori. Though a small subset of religious extremists might garner misperceptions, I feel that would more apply to a minority group; in that, yeah, people like Fred Phelps are a lousy representation of Christianity. But the fact remains that in the US, I believe some 70% of the population identifies as Christian. Ergo, I kind of see "discriminating against Christians" in the same way as I see discriminating against white men: really not a huge issue in the face of the other discrimination that goes on. The fact is, Christians are a giant majority (at least in the US). They are the "norm". Just like someone who is white probably has not faced any discrimination on the level of someone who is a minority race, nor a man has faced discrimination on the level of a woman (generally, of course; I'm not going to go around cherry picking incidents)... I feel the same applies to Christianity. As an ethnic Jew, I was always so confused growing up by Christians claiming discrimination and persecution. It's like-- I'm sure there are isolated incidents. But when your religion makes up the vast majority of a population, just... I guess to me, it seems to be on the same boat as the persecuted white male. I mean, people always seem shocked, in general, if I casually mention say, not celebrating Christmas. It's just expected that you do, and that you're Christian. As I stated previously, it's the norm. And I think we have much more blatant religious discrimination (again, specifically talking US since that's where I live), against minority religions like Islam, that must be looked at and ended much more urgently than any perceived discrimination against Christianity.
Put it this way: you go out in the US wearing a cross necklace, would anyone bat an eye? I doubt it. Go out wearing a hijab? I'm not Muslim, so I have no firsthand experience, but I'm fairly sure it wouldn't take exceptionally long to either get a nervous/suspicious look or some off-handed comment about terrorism.
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Post by Yoyti on Jun 21, 2013 11:25:06 GMT -5
Also, I'm a Christian, and I don't understand why Christians would complain about being discriminated against. o__o Like guys, the Bible says in Matthew 5:10-12 that "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven" So the case is either: A) the persecution and unfairness towards Christians is all false perceptions, or B) it's real and you get awesome presents for it in Heaven. Either way, complaining isn't the proper response. It's as if these people don't even read the Bible! *Appears* Okay, I haven't been participating here despite observing, but I just had a joking observation. Does that mean that racism on the part of religious christians (or those familiar with that passage you pointed to) is actually a positive thing, since they're blessing those they're discriminating against? Sorry... *Disappears* *Appears again* Since we're looking at discrimination being turned in the other direction via extreme anti-discimination, what are your thoughts about extreme political correctness? The existence of that is, perhaps, less debatable than that of "reverse discrimination." *Disappears again* |
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Same with Islam. It can be the 2nd most practiced religion, but discrimination of it in the Western world is not an example of "reverse discrimination."
