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Post by Dan on Apr 1, 2012 17:08:27 GMT -5
I like Hard/Soft, but then again, I came up with that pairing. XD Others I mostly wouldn't mind, but I'm pretty much with 'NOT Coffee Shop/Tavern.' My only complaint about Hard/Soft is that we end up with HIC/SIC. It isn't a requirement to abbreviate them that way, though. I'm sure you could come up with some other term if you don't like that one.
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Post by PFA on Apr 1, 2012 18:01:36 GMT -5
so, um
I can make a Soft Taco thread if no one else is going to. XD;
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Post by Stal on Apr 2, 2012 8:13:20 GMT -5
So, a the new threads are running, which is good.
But as said earlier... They are not the solution to what this thread was started over. So now that something to deal with the roleplaying tension is done with... What else seems to be an issue here?
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Post by The Scrac that Smiles Back on Apr 2, 2012 10:08:31 GMT -5
So, a the new threads are running, which is good. But as said earlier... They are not the solution to what this thread was started over. So now that something to deal with the roleplaying tension is done with... What else seems to be an issue here? I think the other elephants in the room are on even deeper personal issues. Depending on the person, they may or may not be best solved one on one. With this division many of us may never have to deal with the ones we dislike the most again. And then there are others we'll just have to keep working on because we've already asked for help on them and no one else knows what to do either.
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Post by The Scrac that Smiles Back on Apr 8, 2012 16:25:56 GMT -5
Welp, two Tacos have been going for a week, and now I'm more convinced then ever that the idea is ridiculous. If the "Soft" Taco is still okay with random wackiness, then there doesn't seem to be a difference between the two. The real issue is not the violence, which the old Taco hadn't seen any of in a year. After PMing around and discussing with individual their feelings on the whats whys and hows I think the issue that primarily needs addressed is one that I have asked for help on. I've asked other Tacoers, NTWF mods, mods from different sites, friends, books, and random people willing to look into the situation and give me their assessment. No one knows what to do, so if anyone has any ideas that might actually fix the problem, please, please, please, PM me.
In the mean time, that suggestion about mini arcs being summarized was an excellent one.
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Post by Stal on Apr 8, 2012 16:35:10 GMT -5
Question: are people enjoying the more freedom they're allowed on the separate thread?
I think you always had a misunderstanding of what is taking place here, Scrac. The goal has been to figure out what the actual real issues with why Tacoers can't get along is. And you're right, the separate thread isn't a solution to that at all--never was intended to be. But it was something that needed addressing because there was tension in the styles of roleplaying and enjoyment. And yes, the styles were all that were really going to be different between the two.
But it's good that someone revived the thread. As I said earlier, we need to stay focused on these "can't get along" issues and resolving those.
And for posterity, you should state outright what you think the issue is. This is a cooperative effort to get working here...
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Post by Omni on Apr 8, 2012 16:46:29 GMT -5
Heading out soon, but I'll mention real quick that from my point, the 'more freedom' doesn't feel like much of a change. Granted, there seems to be a bit more openness in some cases - which I guess is a step in the right direction - but for the most part, I find it more confusing and irritating with there being another thread to split my attention between when I'm used to talking to everyone about everything all at once in a single post.
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Post by Stal on Apr 8, 2012 16:53:49 GMT -5
Heading out soon, but I'll mention real quick that from my point, the 'more freedom' doesn't feel like much of a change. Granted, there seems to be a bit more openness in some cases - which I guess is a step in the right direction - but for the most part, I find it more confusing and irritating with there being another thread to split my attention between when I'm used to talking to everyone about everything all at once in a single post. A fair and understandable statement given you're still adapting to this change, but before the discussion heads that route... This should not turn into a "is the second thread working or not?" assessment. That is entirely not the focus of this thread. The second thread will either live with posts or die a natural death as people move away from it or stop using it. No one will forcefully shut it down "because it's not working" so that discussion is a little moot anyway. So let's please not get distracted here. (my last post's question was mostly rhetorical as a response to Scrac)
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Post by Stal on Apr 9, 2012 0:31:02 GMT -5
Okay, so.
People are feeling they can't still be open. That they're not comfortable discussing what their real issues are.
People, that is exactly what this thread is for. To be open about the issues and what problems you have. Talking in private messages and Skype with one or two people about what bugs you isn't fixing the issue. And it's certainly not leading to any great fixes around here. The roleplaying styles (as stated again and again) have never been the real issue, and the separate thread never a real solution. We all know that.
But this thread was put together to figure out how to stop the problems we have on Taco from resurfacing. Because Taco has been a pretty huge hotbed of issues and problems around the forum. We need to figure out how to /fix/ that. If we can't fix the problem, things get worse and escalate to the point that eventually everyone loses. No one in the staff wants to do anything like that and we're doing our best to work with you here people... But we need some support and cooperation coming from your direction.
So what is it that bugs you? Let it out. Stay away from insults and being antagonistic in how you portray the issues... But bluntness won't get you in trouble (at most will be asked to tone it down a bit).
And hey, if you don't feel super comfortable, try anonymity at first just to get the discussion ball rolling.
We're aiming for a solution. Because things continuing as they are doesn't work and is not an option. At all.
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Post by Zylaa on Apr 9, 2012 1:24:11 GMT -5
To be clear, we've had a lot of great discussion so far, and we'd like to thank everyone for contributing constructive commentary and criticism (I like my alliterations). Of course it's not going to be comfortable talking about these things, but people have managed it so far. Avoiding issues will not solve anything; only by talking about these things out in the open can we start approaching a real solution. I think we're already improving, since we've touched on a lot of things that people can keep in mind as they Taco (Taco is a verb now.)
A couple reminders as the discussion continues, in easy-to-digest numbers:
1) Please be honest and straightforward, but keep your discussion targeted towards problems, not people (e.x. "I feel uncomfortable when x happens" instead of "I don't like how Z does x.") Remember that we're all working towards the same goal.
2) On the flip side of that coin, if someone says something you disagree with, don't take it personally! People often disagree with each other and still respect each other as a person.
3) On the flip flip side (the edge? >_>), if someone says something not to your liking, think it over anyway before you disagree. We will get nowhere if people are not willing to compromise-- no matter how many sides there may be to an issue, each side will probably have to give a little in order for us to reach a solution to what's bugging people.
And as Stal said, anonymous posts are perfectly ok! We want to get all the input we can, and if people don't feel comfortable addressing what the problem really is, guest-posting is your friend. ^_^
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Post by Anonymous on Apr 9, 2012 1:27:22 GMT -5
I feel like a lot of the main problems people have had/are having with the IC Chat have already been gone over before in this thread, and there isn't a whole lot more we can talk about in here to fix many of them. Personally, the thing which bugs me the most would be excessive OOC posting which really would be better somewhere other than the IC Chat*. Dan, Stal, and plenty of other people have reiterated that the Taco is supposed to be for In-character chat with occasional bits of small OOC chatter being allowed, but I have still seen some larger conversations that would probably belong elsewhere. So after this has been brought up, most people have conceded that it's reasonable that majorly off-topic discussion should be moved somewhere other than the Taco, and agreed to let other people know if OOC talk is getting in the way of character interactions... but what now? We don't really have any need to talk about it here, since we've basically established what the guidelines for the particular problem would be if it arises. All we can really do to fix this problem is to try to prevent it from happening, or fix it if it is happening. There isn't much more to discuss in regards to this problem. The same thing could be said for excessively-involved Character interaction which clogs the Taco (for lack of a better term). Most people have said that if something ends up interfering with the rest of the Taco to the point where other non-involved interactions can't occur, it would be best suited in its own thread. We can't really discuss specifics, because the specifics vary so much from situation to situation. As for the problems which we still haven't fixed: The goal has been to figure out what the actual real issues with why Tacoers can't get along is. Scrac raised a good point when she mentioned that a lot of the problems that still remain may be between Tacoers on a more personal level. I can't really think of any ways that the Mods would be able to help with that, other than moderating a massive group therapy/teambuilding session, which is kind of beside the point of this entire discussion There are still a lot of things that need to be taken care of, but not all of them are necessarily the kind that can be done in an open discussion like this. * Which doesn't mean that it doesn't belong in the IC Chat - just that it would belong better elsewhere.
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Post by Stal on Apr 9, 2012 1:43:42 GMT -5
Actually, Anon, that is not beside the point. It's exactly the point.
As said, the Taco is a huge hotbed of issues. We've had too many problems stem from it. People snapping, biting, etc at each other. And it's pretty unique to this area of the forum. Yes, maybe the issues are personal, but they are also systemic. This is not simply a matter of a couple cases where person A and B can't get along and same with C and D. There are common issues to the community as a whole at stake.
And while Scrac is correct that they are matters of a more personal nature, the point of this thread is to solve those. And personal does not necessarily mean private. It's time to get them out into the open, in a safe environment, where neutral parties are trying to help resolve the problem and find a solution to bring peace back to the area.
And according to what Scrac has said, almost no one on here is being entirely open and honest about their feelings and what bugs them. Now, I can't just take her word for that. But at the same time, using PMs and hiding behind other people, and not saying what you feel? That's not fixing anything. And if everyone is doing it, nothing is going to get better.
This needs to be discussed with everyone. A collaborative discussion for people to work for a solution--without it descending either to bullying, trolling, or other destructive levels.
Despite claims that it can't be done in the open, there is 1) no evidence to prove that and 2) handling them privately hasn't exactly worked out so far, has it. Given the sheer number of people, a collective discussion will actually be better. Especially with the facilitators being a third party here.
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Post by PFA on Apr 9, 2012 11:57:51 GMT -5
To be perfectly honest, I'm not really sure what this huge second issue we keep talking about even is. XD; I mean, personally, there's me being afraid of arguments starting from lingering tension on occasion... but I haven't actually seen that happen in a long time, and with everyone being as polite and understanding as they have been here, I feel like maybe it doesn't even really exist anymore.
So I guess I feel like this second elephant in the room might actually just be a series of misunderstandings on minor personal issues, because I don't really feel like there's this one huge issue that needs fixing. I could be wrong, though.
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Post by An anon on Apr 9, 2012 13:10:02 GMT -5
I do not know how to contribute to the discussion more than simply stating what irritates me when I visit the IC Chat. I will compare it to the non-separated 'Bloids years ago. There used to be very large alter ego interactions, ones that I took part in, and they stretched on for pages at a time. Yet even then, other people would be free to jump in randomly or just have a conversation on the side. I do understand that the IC Chat is different, now in that I feel/felt completely alienated when there was a large character interaction happening. At the 'Bloids, the most I needed to know is "This forumer is playing a ninja" or such. I have seen things like varying settings, detailed character lists, and so on that make it more difficult to jump in to begin with. Though the 'Bloids were more quickly moving, none of these large-scale alter ego interactions which I joined took more than a day. However, many of these interactions which at the least appear complex last for seemingly ages on the IC Chat. I understand that Tacoers agreed to move away plot-focused roleplays to a new The Taco Cart thread. However, a casual conversation which takes half a month is not much better.
Should these interactions be between two people, which they typically appear to be, it seems only to be acting in common sense to move it to PM should the interaction take more than one day. Though the roleplayers may be using the thread as intended, it's how long they do this for which makes others feel excluded. I do not see why it can not be moved to one of the many specialized threads. While it might be argued that it they can continue on because nobody else is there, I know that I personally have witnessed people try to jump in during these interactions to be ignored or even chastised. If one is upset for trying to play with their alter egos on a forum, they will not do it again to prevent being hurt again. As such, these "personal issues" spring up as a few potential Taco-ers watch a few people take over.
I am scared to make a statement like this, but I have felt like the same small groups of people have controlled the "Soft Taco" and "Hard Taco" threads since their creation. This could be on account of how there is not booming activity every single day due to any myriad of real life factors which drain time, however it still makes it difficult to want to jump in and contribute to activity when a long-stretched interaction is occurring. I have witnessed forumers attempt to visit either thread and get a response at best, but afterwards the groups continue on in their own interests. It is not a lack of some trying to get in, it is a case of needing to step away and let someone else take a turn if one has dominated a thread for several days.
Any type of response is appreciated, because I would enjoy participating in the IC Chat more than the little I did, should most of the issues be cleared.
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Post by Stal on Apr 9, 2012 13:29:23 GMT -5
That's a legitimate complaint, and one that seems to be an issue in most social areas.
So let me ask a question, then. My understanding of the Taco has been that the main thread should be less stories and extended RPs and more hangout lounges built around the IC uses. Is this a shift in the overall culture of the threads, one that most people enjoy, or just something that has happened because it discourages and chokes out others?
And does anyone have any other perspectives of that to add?
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