|
Post by Nimras on Feb 18, 2012 1:31:25 GMT -5
This brings something to mind that I saw someone else making the point of today... Kind of obscure for some, I suspect, but Amanda Waller. She's from the Marvel Universe. She used to look like this: She was loud, large, and fearless. In a world of waif-fu mutants with superpowers, she was an ordinary human who could keep up with the best of them, and as a general rule was better at getting the job actually done. That's her introductory image, the first time the reader sees the new and "improved" Amanda Waller that Marvel's Universe will run with now. She wasn't sexy enough, you see.
|
|
|
Post by Komori on Feb 18, 2012 1:53:49 GMT -5
I get a broken image for her reboot pic, Nim.
But omg, that's just super tragic. Kind of like giving Samus a Zero Suit, it's just two steps back for progress.
|
|
|
Post by Ikkin on Feb 18, 2012 7:12:43 GMT -5
Well, I was working on this until I realized I really need to finish a Spooky comic and those Neoquest 3 thumbnails and a slew of other arts, but I did finish all the gals, which I think is most important. I'm not sure all of these characters could be the main, playable character (Isn't that the Hero anyway?), but I could definitely see all of them as significant characters in a game. I tried to tackle a few different genres of games, though my style is inevitably cutesy, so. Gah, the magician's supposed to be wearing spectacles, but I obviously forgot the bridge over her nose. Considering I knocked these six out without too much trouble, I'm not seeing that game designers have much of an excuse for just making slinky, well-endowed 20-somethings. Can I just tell you how much I love your character designs, Komo? They're really striking and easily distinguishable, and I'd totally want to play a game with them in my party. <3 I get a broken image for her reboot pic, Nim. But omg, that's just super tragic. Kind of like giving Samus a Zero Suit, it's just two steps back for progress. I think there's an anti-image linking rule on the site it came from, because I was able to see it by C+Ping the URL. But... wow. It's really bad. Probably more so than the existence (though perhaps not the use of) the Zero Suit, because there's honestly no good explanation for it at all. At least wearing tight clothing under powered armor makes sense. =P (The real travesty of Samus, in my mind, is changing her from a 6'3", 198lb super-human to a waif who's usually the shortest person in the room =/) If I'm reading it right, it looks like they might have made her a villain, too...? =/
|
|
|
Post by M is for Morphine on Feb 18, 2012 9:03:35 GMT -5
If I'm reading it right, it looks like they might have made her a villain, too...? =/ She's always been an antagonist of sorts. She leads (or lead?) a secret government project to protect the US in the event of Superman (or other superheroes, but mostly superman) going rogue. It puts her at odd with the Justice League a lot, though she's doing what she thinks is best for her country. She's an interesting character without the purely black or white morality you sometimes end up with in comics. :3 Though she looks like she's in pure moustache-twirling mode in the new comic. That stinks. I seriously can't recommend Justice League Unlimited enough. DC's tv department has always been leagues better than the comics branch about appealing to younger viewers and women.
|
|
|
Post by Gav on Feb 18, 2012 9:26:27 GMT -5
If I'm reading it right, it looks like they might have made her a villain, too...? =/ She's always been an antagonist of sorts. She leads (or lead?) a secret government project to protect the US in the event of Superman (or other superheroes, but mostly superman) going rogue. It puts her at odd with the Justice League a lot, though she's doing what she thinks is best for her country. She's an interesting character without the purely black or white morality you sometimes end up with in comics. :3 Though she looks like she's in pure moustache-twirling mode in the new comic. That stinks. I seriously can't recommend Justice League Unlimited enough. DC's tv department has always been leagues better than the comics branch about appealing to younger viewers and women. I think nothing else shows how much more popular the TV version is compared to the comic version than Starfire. Comparing this: To this: Not to mention her personality did a complete 180.
|
|
|
Post by M is for Morphine on Feb 18, 2012 10:01:38 GMT -5
Not to mention her personality did a complete 180. There's a pretty great comic about that.
|
|
|
Post by Nimras on Feb 18, 2012 11:11:01 GMT -5
I get a broken image for her reboot pic, Nim. But omg, that's just super tragic. Kind of like giving Samus a Zero Suit, it's just two steps back for progress. Try this one, it's a side-by-side comparison.Oh, and Starfire. *sigh* Don't even get me started. She was always a sensual character in the comics (we'll leave Teen Titans alone - she was practically a different character) but she went from "powerful woman who makes boys feel funny inside" to a person who literally can not remember who she has had sex with.
|
|
|
Post by Crystal on Feb 18, 2012 20:05:12 GMT -5
Those are awesome, Komo! :3 The saddest thing is that the designer probably thinks "Oh man, I just made her so much more powerful and cool! I am the schnizz."
|
|
|
Post by Nut on Feb 18, 2012 21:08:51 GMT -5
Komori, those character designs are awesome--they've all got very clear, distinct builds and attitudes. (I particularly like the Tank; she looks so cheerful and totally willing to step in front of her teammates in a battle. xD) I want to do the challenge too, but we'll see whether I act on that or not. Ikkin, I'm really enjoying these links you're posting. I'd seen the female TF2 models before, but had no idea about those pages about them. Thanks for sharing. Impa's Skyward Sword design is awesome. I particularly liked how, before you saw her, they were talking about a "man in black" with Zelda... and then, no, it's just Impa. xD I don't think there's really any problem with her being young, particularly when she actually looks like someone who could protect Zelda physically. Plus, she doesn't exactly fit into the normal "young woman" shape, either... she's really tall and somewhat imposing, rather than generically pretty. Haha, I know, that was excellent. xD Her SS design is definitely really awesome. And yeah, it's not like it's inherently sexist to make a female character young--in fact, it's refreshing to see a young character designed in a way that doesn't seem particularly meant to make her attractive. I can see Stal's argument about her going from old to young throughout the games, but... characters do evolve, and in all honesty she didn't really do much in the early old woman incarnations; she's much more involved in the later games.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2012 23:45:06 GMT -5
Not to mention her personality did a complete 180. There's a pretty great comic about that. It seems like those are two different fandoms with the same character? I don't know either of them, so what exactly went on?
|
|
|
Post by Nimras on Feb 19, 2012 0:17:06 GMT -5
It seems like those are two different fandoms with the same character? I don't know either of them, so what exactly went on? ...It's a long story, and it's kind of hard to explain. But in a nutshell, Starfire is the superhero name of a character named Koriand'r, who existed first as a comic book character, was was later brought into the more-kid-friendly Teen Titans. She's an alien, a Tamaranean, and the original Starfire used her emotions (especially love) to basically channel her powers. She could learn languages by touching people, usually by kissing them. In the comics, she was from the get-go a very sexual character, but she had character depth, motivations, friends, and was a pretty well rounded character who had adult storylines. Teen Titans child-friendlied her character by removing a lot of the sexy, but basically she was pretty close in character and history. In the rebooted 52 universe, which is now the official current DC universe, Starfire sees humans as pretty much only fun play things for sex, and she's an amnesiac. She's willing to have sex with anyone casually, and then can't remember who she slept with -- and she doesn't care about that, or how it may effect others emotionally. It's pretty much stated that the guys know this (and these are the hero guys), and happily take advantage of the fact.
|
|
|
Post by Strife on Feb 19, 2012 2:19:24 GMT -5
Yeeeaaah, I very much prefer the cartoon version of Starfire. She looked and behaved more like a normal person than the other two Starfires, which is ironic considering that she's an alien. xD
Oftentimes, the creators aren't entirely to blame for this "always sexy 20-something supermodel" travesty in geekdom; The male fanbase is just as guilty for actually supporting this type of linearity in female character design. In other words, sex sells, whether the creators like it or not, so oftentimes they'll have to pander to the manly desires of their male fanbase in order to earn money. So, I think the trick to changing to the way the gaming/comic industries feel about it is to change the attitidues of the fans, especially male fans. If they can demonstrate that there's a higher demand for strong, sensible and dynamic female characters than there is for sex figures, then companies will have no choice but to accommodate that demand if they want to keep their fans.
Sadly, this whole attitude towards women is deeply ingrained in many aspects of our culture, so it's not going to be easy. I don't think it's impossible, though - it'll just take a while.
|
|
|
Post by Gav on Feb 19, 2012 2:22:43 GMT -5
XD I always thought the new Starfire was almost universally panned- I mean, that was the impression I got, but I might be wrong.
I think it is shifting, however gradually, though perhaps slower than liked.
|
|
|
Post by Komori on Feb 19, 2012 2:40:22 GMT -5
Yeeeaaah, I very much prefer the cartoon version of Starfire. She looked and behaved more like a normal person than the other two Starfires, which is ironic considering that she's an alien. xD Oftentimes, the creators aren't entirely to blame for this "always sexy 20-something supermodel" travesty in geekdom; The male fanbase is just as guilty for actually supporting this type of linearity in female character design. In other words, sex sells, whether the creators like it or not, so oftentimes they'll have to pander to the manly desires of their male fanbase in order to earn money. So, I think the trick to changing to the way the gaming/comic industries feel about it is to change the attitidues of the fans, especially male fans. If they can demonstrate that there's a higher demand for strong, sensible and dynamic female characters than there is for sex figures, then companies will have no choice but to accommodate that demand if they want to keep their fans. Sadly, this whole attitude towards women is deeply ingrained in many aspects of our culture, so it's not going to be easy. I don't think it's impossible, though - it'll just take a while. Sex might sell, but so does good gameplay. Hence why Portal, a game with a good female lead character (and a good female villain, to boot) sells well, and why Duke Nukem Forever didn't sell well, despite having alien-rape scenarios played off for laughs. No one bought God of War because of the topless women, even though there WERE plenty of topless women and a sex scene. People still buy games so they can play good games. If they wanted to buy sex, they'd buy pornos. So yes, you can sell non-sexual games to even the most sex-craved guys. So just because gamers are guys (even though, what, 46% of gamers are women *cough* *cough*), doesn't mean creators have to pander to their baser instincts. Game creators aren't off the hook just because, "Oh men like boobs, so we HAVE to add boobs or no one will EVER buy our game!"
|
|
|
Post by Gav on Feb 19, 2012 2:46:31 GMT -5
Didn't this topic start with saying there was a lot of sexism in games? I mean, if gameplay is still the presiding factor over visuals when it comes to sales, then hopefully, with enough time, creators would eventually get the hint as to what sells better.
|
|