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Post by Strife on Feb 11, 2012 6:56:12 GMT -5
Ah, that's from Perfect World, if I'm not mistaken, which I actually played for a while. The men look pretty standard for an MMORPG, but the women... oh man, the women. xD; I daresay that I've never seen such a sharp divide between genders in an online game before. As a female character, it's actually impossible to wear any other kind of shoe besides stiletto heels. You can't even be barefoot - the "naked" shoe is still a heel. One could make the argument that the developers only wanted to use one character model for every piece of female equipment, but it's still very noticeable. Anyway, I have this whole issue in the back of my mind whenever I make games, and to be honest, it's one of my core pursuits. I've tried very hard over the years to make compelling female protagonists with as much personality and flare as their male counterparts - so hard in fact that I can't remember the last time I made something with a male protagonist. xD; There is, of course, a pitfall that I have recently become aware of, and it's something I think everyone should keep in mind when they're trying to solve this issue: The concept of men being generic and women being special. So many authors/producers have their hearts in the right place by including a strong female character as the lead, but their efforts fall short if they consistently place her on a pedestal above the rest of the cast, or deliberately bring attention to her gender more frequently than the other characters. Granted, it's okay if individual characters point it out, since they're individuals and likely to have their own reactions (or lack thereof), but the author/producer should come off as largely indifferent about the subject. That way, it feels more natural. Another tip for producers? Make your women just as disposable as your men outside of the horror genre. I find myself getting a bit irked when a woman is in an intense fight and she barely gets a single scratch on her face, while a man in the same position would get dozens of bruises and blood all over their body. Kill Bill was a godsend to me because none of the female characters held back; They were just as brutal, if not more, than the guys. From an overall perspective, I would say that to deal with the issue of gender stereotyping, it would be a good idea to not only treat both genders the same, but also pretend that doing so isn't special or strange.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2012 10:25:30 GMT -5
About the "women being special" thing...
I'm planning a novel. And my five main characters are like this: four strong girls, and one boy. And the boy is a petticoat maker's son - nothing else!
I love these characters and would like to continue writing with them.
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Post by Nimras on Feb 11, 2012 10:43:04 GMT -5
I've always thought that as a general rule, if a characters sex if their defining aspect, than it was probably sexist. If their most important attribute is if they're a boy or a girl, than how can that possibly be character development?
There's always exceptions of course, but I think we've all played games where it's like, ta-dah! Token Male! He's a dude! (Or more commonly, Token Female).
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Post by PFA on Feb 11, 2012 11:49:42 GMT -5
Anyway, I have this whole issue in the back of my mind whenever I make games, and to be honest, it's one of my core pursuits. I've tried very hard over the years to make compelling female protagonists with as much personality and flare as their male counterparts - so hard in fact that I can't remember the last time I made something with a male protagonist. xD; While not necessarily something I have in mind all the time when making my games, it is something I've thought about on occasion. Of course, considering that I'm a female making the type of games that I like to play, I guess I'm kind of making a statement by default. XD And I've always treated both genders as approximate equals in my stories. I mean, I guess I have a couple females in male-dominant roles who the characters might point out as being female, but it's not like I'm trying to make this huge statement or anything. XD; And the only real reason I have a lot of female protagonists is because I made a lot of my characters when I was twelve. I generally try to keep the overall ratio pretty balanced.
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Post by Huntress on Feb 11, 2012 12:09:12 GMT -5
I've always thought that as a general rule, if a characters sex if their defining aspect, than it was probably sexist. If their most important attribute is if they're a boy or a girl, than how can that possibly be character development? There's always exceptions of course, but I think we've all played games where it's like, ta-dah! Token Male! He's a dude! (Or more commonly, Token Female). Well, to devilsadvocate this, doesn't that often overlap with bad characterization? Ye average Token Dude/Gal is usually just badly defined and if you switched their gender, they wouldn't be any better as far as depth and definition goes. It's just that gender is such an incredibly fundamental part of a human that this is generally the first (and least avoidable) trait a creator can pin down. 'course, if they then try to add depth by taking a fistful of stereotypes associated with the gender they picked, dumping it all on the token and calling it a day, then we have a problem xP But there's a line between a sexist character and a two-dimensional character, is what I'm getting at.
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Post by Komori on Feb 11, 2012 14:20:49 GMT -5
'course, if they then try to add depth by taking a fistful of stereotypes associated with the gender they picked, dumping it all on the token and calling it a day, then we have a problem xP But there's a line between a sexist character and a two-dimensional character, is what I'm getting at. This is very true. I think the cliched are easier to spot in female characters mostly because they almost always fall into only one or two different tropes, vs maybe the half-dozen different tropes used for flat male characters. Not that I'm saying we need more cliches to dump flat female characters into. XDDDD
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Post by Nut on Feb 12, 2012 12:11:18 GMT -5
As far as character portrayal goes, I agree that a lot of the badly presented female characters are due to bad characterization period, as well as a tendency to follow trends. Any creative product is going to be heavily influenced by what’s already out there, especially by what’s popular, and it takes quite a bit of initiative to ignore media trends when creating something from scratch. If a lot of popular media tend to feature young straight male protagonists and shallow female sidekicks, it just may not occur to the creators to do something different. We base what we create on what we’ve experienced, and in a lot of cases, creators are probably basing their creations on their experiences with other media instead of reality—and thus bring about a production cycle of flawed source material for others to take inspiration from. It’s not an excuse for not doing the research to begin with, but it happens in nearly every creative field; we’ve all seen the laughable drivel that comes from young writers who haven’t quite found their footing. But writing has been around for a lot longer than gaming, so there are more fully matured and developed creators making good stuff to drown out all the bad.
There’s also the issue that creators of games have more to worry about than just the characters. In a book or a movie, story and characters are at the forefront; they are the core of what you’re selling. Games were originally sold solely for their gameplay—characters didn’t have to have personality because they were just avatars for the player. Now that story and characters have become important to games as well, the development teams have a whole bunch of added variables to worry about, and I imagine that priorities shift when you’re on a tight schedule trying to keep up with the rest of the industry. I’d think it’d be a lot easier to modify some stock characters and scenarios and throw them into your game environment than to put a lot of effort into creating realistic personalities to do the same job, especially since a flat character can become endeared to the audience through excellent gameplay (Mario being the iconic example) but it’s hard to save terrible gameplay with a good story.
And yes, the way to invent better female characters, like any characters, is to think of them first and foremost as people and to ask what motivates them, what interests them, what their history is, what their personality is like, what their strengths and flaws are, and all the rest of it. Make a character female even if there’s no specific reason for her to be female. That was what happened with Portal’s Chell, and she became one of the most memorable female characters in gaming solely because her sex did not matter. Show women who are there not as eye candy or love interests, but just because they happen to be there and to be women; stop treating them as different or special; stop thinking of them as female characters, but just as characters.
Of course, this can sadly be difficult when so much audience attention is focused on the portrayal of female characters, and it’s ironically impossible to satisfy everyone’s expectations of what a “good” female character should be. The thing is that a good female character doesn’t need to be a brilliant role model; she just needs to be believable. That’s true in any area of media, and as far as video games are concerned, it probably couldn’t hurt to have a few more first-person games with female protagonists—because what makes a character more real to you than making you become that character?
(Also, Stal, thanks for the clarification earlier.)
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Post by Ikkin on Feb 16, 2012 23:16:08 GMT -5
Okay, maybe Chun-Li wasn't the best example. XD I still don't think she's as bad as Tifa though. Well, that does kind of depend on which Tifa you're talking about. ...than in Chun-Li's outfit! Tifa's got actual muscle definition in her arms, which is kind of a plus, and her outfit makes far more sense in the context of her running a bar than Chun-Li's does as an Interpol agent. FFVII Tifa, of course, was a travesty, but even her character designer didn't seem to like what was done there very much, given the difference when he had the chance to redesign her for his own project. XD Remember, though, there's two parts to it: it's not just the outfits, but the context of who's required to be attractive, too. Tifa's surrounded by some of the most attractive men in videogames (eg. Cloud, Sephiroth, and Vincent), while Chun-Li's surrounding cast consists mainly of not-traditionally-attractive men (particularly the icky muscle-blobs in thongs -_-). Fanservice always seems a bit less egregious when it works both ways, because at least then it isn't exclusionary. Another tip for producers? Make your women just as disposable as your men outside of the horror genre. I find myself getting a bit irked when a woman is in an intense fight and she barely gets a single scratch on her face, while a man in the same position would get dozens of bruises and blood all over their body. Kill Bill was a godsend to me because none of the female characters held back; They were just as brutal, if not more, than the guys. Heh, yeah, that Beauty Is Never Tarnished thing is really annoying. It's really obvious when the people working on the game/movie/whatever just really don't want their characters to get icky, and it's even more obvious when it's not evenly applied. That's a bit different from the Men Are The Expendable Gender thing, though, which has more to do with who gets to be redshirts rather than who gets to get messy, though, of course, the two tend to be heavily interrelated. The expendable gender thing is more likely to be laziness and lack of caring, especially in videogames, since it means making half as many unique NPC models (whereas the Beauty is Never Tarnished thing doesn't necessarily arise at all if the male characters aren't getting messy and bruised in contrast, which would take more work than just not having anyone get messy in the first place). ...and, of course, you can run into the opposite problem where female characters are intentionally injured/messed up because the male audience really likes seeing that, which... is probably worse. =/ Of course, this can sadly be difficult when so much audience attention is focused on the portrayal of female characters, and it’s ironically impossible to satisfy everyone’s expectations of what a “good” female character should be. The thing is that a good female character doesn’t need to be a brilliant role model; she just needs to be believable. That’s true in any area of media, and as far as video games are concerned, it probably couldn’t hurt to have a few more first-person games with female protagonists—because what makes a character more real to you than making you become that character? Something to mention here is that adding in more characters almost always helps. If you only have one female character, you'll always get people reacting with the assumption that that's how you see women in general. If there are more of them, each of whom represents a different end of the various spectra, you'll get more leeway if one of them likes pink or wears dresses or can't stand anything feminine whatsoever.
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Post by Komori on Feb 17, 2012 0:19:43 GMT -5
Something to mention here is that adding in more characters almost always helps. If you only have one female character, you'll always get people reacting with the assumption that that's how you see women in general. If there are more of them, each of whom represents a different end of the various spectra, you'll get more leeway if one of them likes pink or wears dresses or can't stand anything feminine whatsoever. Yeah, unless you go too far and it becomes a harem story. XDD But you know what, I'm almost more okay with something that's obviously created for men to oggle (like that bikini beach ball version of Dead or Alive), than something that purports to be a more realistic story. For example, as much as I love Heavy Rain, it IS pretty frustrating that the four women characters are the same age, same body type, and almost look identical (with Lauren Winters being the most distinct). Come on, three of them are supposed to be mothers, you couldn't make even one of them middle-aged? Well, not to mention the prostitution and the nudity, including some needless stripping-at-gunpoint. It's a game that's more story than game, so why you gotta' be like that? D:
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Post by Stal on Feb 17, 2012 0:52:13 GMT -5
Something to mention here is that adding in more characters almost always helps. If you only have one female character, you'll always get people reacting with the assumption that that's how you see women in general. If there are more of them, each of whom represents a different end of the various spectra, you'll get more leeway if one of them likes pink or wears dresses or can't stand anything feminine whatsoever. Yeah, unless you go too far and it becomes a harem story. XDD But you know what, I'm almost more okay with something that's obviously created for men to oggle (like that bikini beach ball version of Dead or Alive), than something that purports to be a more realistic story. For example, as much as I love Heavy Rain, it IS pretty frustrating that the four women characters are the same age, same body type, and almost look identical (with Lauren Winters being the most distinct). Come on, three of them are supposed to be mothers, you couldn't make even one of them middle-aged? Well, not to mention the prostitution and the nudity, including some needless stripping-at-gunpoint. It's a game that's more story than game, so why you gotta' be like that? D: Isn't Heavy Rain gritty modern noir? That seems like standard tropes for the genre, and when doing a story, aren't you kind of expected to carry some of those tropes in? (I know people talk about wanting originality and non-cliche stories within a genre, but tropes of a genre are tropes for a reason) Man, it hit me that I had some great examples of non-sexualized characters a few days ago. And I forgot them all. But I will say some games have a good reputation in this way. Harvest Moon provides great diversity of characters, and a lot of the recent ones let you choose your sex and pursue. Nim already mentioned FemShep from Mass Effect. And to be honest, despite never playing ME I remember being impressed with the diversity of cast available to choose in ME2 from the times I saw friends playing them. I would cite the Zelda series, but I think the various incarnations of Impa over the years would undercut that example. Kingdom Hearts has actually done some fair portrayals of their own female characters. Not trying to prove anything with these examples. Just adding to a discussion of fair examples. And I know diversity of body type is one big thing considered in this discussion, but I think that's just a plain across the board thing. People tend to go towards body design that works for a character concept. And generically both sexes have a pretty standard body type that's set based on "ideals" (according to men and media). Deviations occur as traits call for it (i.e. Mario's fat because he's a plumber.. Stereotypical, but let's be honest), not traits thought up secondarily to go with a design. Not always anyway. I think where it becomes more noticeable with females is they have more aspects to figure and diversity in that than men really do. But trying to think of how diverse male characters are? Not got a whole lot there.
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Post by Gav on Feb 17, 2012 2:21:31 GMT -5
Okay, maybe Chun-Li wasn't the best example. XD I still don't think she's as bad as Tifa though. Well, that does kind of depend on which Tifa you're talking about. ...than in Chun-Li's outfit! Tifa's got actual muscle definition in her arms, which is kind of a plus, and her outfit makes far more sense in the context of her running a bar than Chun-Li's does as an Interpol agent. FFVII Tifa, of course, was a travesty, but even her character designer didn't seem to like what was done there very much, given the difference when he had the chance to redesign her for his own project. XD Remember, though, there's two parts to it: it's not just the outfits, but the context of who's required to be attractive, too. Tifa's surrounded by some of the most attractive men in videogames (eg. Cloud, Sephiroth, and Vincent), while Chun-Li's surrounding cast consists mainly of not-traditionally-attractive men (particularly the icky muscle-blobs in thongs -_-). Fanservice always seems a bit less egregious when it works both ways, because at least then it isn't exclusionary. I'll grant that AC Tifa was much better. I feel like they took a step backward when they put her in Dissida though, by giving her her cowgirl outfit (which was an outfit she wore when she was 14, mind), but them's the breaks. As for Cloud/Sephiroth/Vincent, though, I can't exactly say they're the most attractive men in videogames- sure, they have tons of fangirls, but that's because they are prettyboys and a lot of people like prettyboys. XD Some people do like the more muscle-blobby types (I... guess Barret would have had his share of fans?), but then again, it's Japan, where prettyboys are everywhere (which was why they made Vaan the lead against Basch, I guess). I actually thought Tifa stood out more amongst her case than Chun-Li, but I guess that's just me. XD But coming back to that, it does feel like a lot of times when they design females to be 'attractive' they tend to stick to a fairly uniform ideal, whereas men seem to run the gamut.
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Post by Nut on Feb 17, 2012 8:23:42 GMT -5
Of course, this can sadly be difficult when so much audience attention is focused on the portrayal of female characters, and it’s ironically impossible to satisfy everyone’s expectations of what a “good” female character should be. The thing is that a good female character doesn’t need to be a brilliant role model; she just needs to be believable. That’s true in any area of media, and as far as video games are concerned, it probably couldn’t hurt to have a few more first-person games with female protagonists—because what makes a character more real to you than making you become that character? Something to mention here is that adding in more characters almost always helps. If you only have one female character, you'll always get people reacting with the assumption that that's how you see women in general. If there are more of them, each of whom represents a different end of the various spectra, you'll get more leeway if one of them likes pink or wears dresses or can't stand anything feminine whatsoever. That is a good point. I should have mentioned that, yeah. Although it depends a bit on the game, since some have huge casts of characters and some work with just a few (like Portal, which is what I was thinking of and probably why I didn't think to mention more characters, though even Portal has GLaDOS as a foil). To be completely honest, although of course it'd be nice to see more diversity in character design/more females who aren't designed to be attractive, the character fanservice aspect of this issue bothers me a lot less than the behavior of actual fans when they're talking about female characters or women. But... I guess that's more of a social issue. I remember first entering fandoms and being bothered by how many jokes and fanmade material were somewhat misogynist in nature, but as I get older, it gets easier to see how immature that stuff is and to realize that not everyone acts like that... though I have huge problems with behavior in fandoms in general, so that may not be pertinent to this. I would cite the Zelda series, but I think the various incarnations of Impa over the years would undercut that example. I'm a little surprised at the choice of Impa. xD I would've thought Midna would be more of a problem from an appearance standpoint, but maybe I've been influenced by how the fandom tends to portray her. Impa's incarnations actually tend to show quite some diversity, seeing as we've seen her as an old woman, as a heavy woman, and as a young warrior; she's always been implied to be strong, and although her costumes in OoT or even OoS/OoA probably aren't the greatest examples, her design usually doesn't really scream "sexualized" to me-- her recent incarnation in SS actually does quite a good job on that front, despite her being young.
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Post by Stal on Feb 17, 2012 9:22:19 GMT -5
Actually I meant the evolution from the old handmaiden/guardian to a young lithe warrior. Her designs have diversity, but what's the evolution been?
As misogynist humor goes, I admit, I find it hilarious. But I'm a fan of absurd humor, and misogyny is absurd. (no, I don't buy the false dichotomy labeling that finding some kind of offensive humor funny makes you of that offensive mindset.) I know girls are split on that kind of humor, to some extent. The people I know who make the jokes are the kind that don't actually act that way and more make a statement for contextual lulz. (it's especially fun when the girls themselves get right in on the joke or lob a few back)
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Post by Stal on Feb 17, 2012 9:39:27 GMT -5
While I can't link to it, Cracked has a new article today tying to this topic.
(a couple weeks back, one author wrote on sexist comic costumes... This article is on dumb responses to that article)
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Post by Nut on Feb 17, 2012 9:52:29 GMT -5
Actually I meant the evolution from the old handmaiden/guardian to a young lithe warrior. Her designs have diversity, but what's the evolution been? As misogynist humor goes, I admit, I find it hilarious. But I'm a fan of absurd humor, and misogyny is absurd. (no, I don't buy the false dichotomy labeling that finding some kind of offensive humor funny makes you of that offensive mindset.) I know girls are split on that kind of humor, to some extent. The people I know who make the jokes are the kind that don't actually act that way and more make a statement for contextual lulz. (it's especially fun when the girls themselves get right in on the joke or lob a few back) Ah, okay. Yeah, that's a good point, though I think in a way Skyward Sword brings her evolution full circle... ...by showing her throughout the game as both an old woman and a young one, due to time travel. Yeah, the reactions to that kind of thing can depend a lot on personality and context. I tend to dislike it myself, but depending on who's making the jokes and whether it's portrayed as obviously absurd, I won't deny that it can be funny in the right context. I've always generally had difficulty with the kind of humor that comes from bantering/friendly jabs, though -- it can be fun to keep up for a while, but I quickly start to feel pressured to make comebacks and want serious conversation instead -- and I try to avoid offensive humor just because I prefer not to perpetuate the offense even if it's "not serious". I guess it comes down to taste.
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