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Post by Yoyti on Jan 18, 2012 19:06:50 GMT -5
I came across this puzzle a few years ago. A friend reminded me of it yesterday, and I thought it'd make for good conversation.
The question posed is whether or not you can intend to do something you know you wouldn't have to do.
Initially, I thought that I'd check my bank account. If the money was there, I'd drink the toxin, because otherwise I'd feel guilty. If the money wasn't there, I'd not drink the toxin, because I'd have no incentive to do so. But the question really isn't that simple. So I decided to try something else.
I won't check my bank account. I'll drink the toxin, and then check my bank account. My idea is that knowing the outcome ruins your incentive, hence causing the dilemma. If I drink the toxin without knowing the outcome, I must've intended to drink it anyway. Hence, I get the money.
The puzzle is also very similar to Newcomb's paradox. Newcomb's paradox states this: There is fortune teller. The fortune teller has a reputation for never being wrong, though that doesn't mean he's infallible. He poses to you a game. There are two boxes, box A and box B. You are asked to pick either box B only, or both box A and box B. Box A contains one-hundred dollars, regardless of whatever happens next. Box B contains one-thousand dollars if the fortune-teller has predicted you will pick only box B, but if he has predicted that you will pick both boxes, box B will be empty. The game has begun, the contents of the box have been decided, and there's no way to change them. What do you do?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2012 20:59:30 GMT -5
Hm....
These money puzzles are always something I would turn down. I remember my Health teacher asked me if we would accept a million dollars but she would inject us with HIV or paralyze us or something. I never said yes.
Of course, if I WERE going to go for this one, I would check my bank account, and then not drink it. I have no moral qualms about NOT putting myself in pain when someone told me to, and no one I loved would be harmed if I didn't.
Now, if the situation was I had to drink it or someone I loved dearly would come to harm, I would drink it. I would gladly contract any disease or drink any poison to save the people I love, because I value their lives higher than mine.
And if the situation were that if I accepted the money that was already there and I didn't drink it my loved one would be harmed, then I wouldn't accept the money. No point in bringing myself to unnecessary pain and putting my loved one in danger.
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Post by Yoyti on Jan 18, 2012 21:33:17 GMT -5
Sae, something I think you might be missing is that the poison will have no lasting effects. After twenty-four hours of pain, that's it, you're done. I liken it to a migrane headache, or at least the ones I get. I wouldn't take it if it were an illness that could actually hurt me. Of course, I'd request a specific date to drink the toxin, so that it won't interfere with my schedule.
But what about Newcomb's paradox, Sae? It's basically the same, but you're not at risk for anything.
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Post by Killix on Jan 19, 2012 0:37:15 GMT -5
Billionaire is hilarious, trying to get people to willingly drink a pain toxin.
The way it's worded makes this an easy choice for me.
I'll take the money, make a plan to drink it at midnight, but not actually drink it.
I can "intend" (plan) anything, but that doesn't imply that I'm going to go through with the plan. If the agreement was to just intend, then I've already finished my part of the deal by planning to drink it.
I'd pick both boxes. I'll get at least $100. If I choose just B, I could get nothing.
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Post by Celestial on Jan 19, 2012 7:03:20 GMT -5
I'd take the money, say I'll drink the toxin and not ultimately drink the toxin. If I was not told that the money would be given to me without the consequences, I would have drunk it, since I could use a million dollars and as long as it had no lasting effects and just made me ill, I could put up with that. I'm curious what people would do if they did not know that the money was being deposited in their bank account before they drank the poison.
Newcomb's paradox, I'd probably pick box A. Hundred dollars isn't much but it isn't too bad and you're guaranteed that instead of the 50/50 chance of nothing with box B.
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Post by Jina on Jan 19, 2012 7:10:35 GMT -5
Billionaire is hilarious, trying to get people to willingly drink a pain toxin. The way it's worded makes this an easy choice for me. I'll take the money, make a plan to drink it at midnight, but not actually drink it. I can "intend" (plan) anything, but that doesn't imply that I'm going to go through with the plan. If the agreement was to just intend, then I've already finished my part of the deal by planning to drink it. I'd pick both boxes. I'll get at least $100. If I choose just B, I could get nothing. But then you aren't planning to do it. xD You're saying you'll do it, but planning not to, which means you don't have intent. If you assume the billionaire knows whether or not you intend to do it, the only way you could get the money without drinking would be to truly intend to drink it, but then have a change of heart at the last second, after being paid. And the other one just depends on whether or not you believe the fortune teller is always right or not. *shrug* Newcomb's paradox, I'd probably pick box A. Hundred dollars isn't much but it isn't too bad and you're guaranteed that instead of the 50/50 chance of nothing with box B. You either pick both boxes, or box B, not just box A. The paradox being, after the money gets put in the box, you always get more by picking both boxes, but if the fortune teller is always right, then you'd only get $100 by picking both, but you'd get $1000 if you pick just box B, which makes box B better... like I said, depends on how good you think the fortune teller is. xD |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2012 10:21:59 GMT -5
Sae, something I think you might be missing is that the poison will have no lasting effects. After twenty-four hours of pain, that's it, you're done. I liken it to a migrane headache, or at least the ones I get. I wouldn't take it if it were an illness that could actually hurt me. Of course, I'd request a specific date to drink the toxin, so that it won't interfere with my schedule. But what about Newcomb's paradox, Sae? It's basically the same, but you're not at risk for anything. I know. I just think going through any sort of pain (even if it has no lasting effect) for purely money is just silly. Newcomb's...I'd pick both boxes. Better $100 than nothing. |
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Post by Gelquie on Jan 19, 2012 16:36:36 GMT -5
For the toxin one, I probably would take it. I'm used to mind-splitting headaches, so it'd be nothing I'm not used to, but this time I'd get good money for it. I would probably intend to take it. I can very well intend to do something even if I know I won't have to. No idea if I would go through with it when the time came. That would depend.
(However, I would make sure that they would only be able to put money in my account, and never have the access to take it out. And I would certainly check to see if the money was in my account first before the drinking time. And if it's not, no deal.)
(On the other hand, it does sound like a very sadistic game from a billionaire. It would still make me question his motives. xD Or maybe the billionaire just likes playing mind-games.)
Now for the paradox, I would choose both box A and box B. Honestly, I wouldn't really trust the fortune teller, even if they had the reputation of never being wrong. And plus, the fortune teller would probably expect most people to go with both options, so there'd be a higher chance of box B being empty. So with the "choosing both" choice, then I would at least get something out of it.
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Post by Killix on Jan 19, 2012 23:25:10 GMT -5
But then you aren't planning to do it. xD You're saying you'll do it, but planning not to, which means you don't have intent. If you assume the billionaire knows whether or not you intend to do it, the only way you could get the money without drinking would be to truly intend to drink it, but then have a change of heart at the last second, after being paid. And the other one just depends on whether or not you believe the fortune teller is always right or not. *shrug* No. If I make a plan to drink it, that's planning. XD For example, if I write down my plan on some paper... "Plan to drink toxin in 3 easy steps: Step 1: Go to kitchen. Step 2. Take vial. Step 3. Drink vial" Maybe even draw up some blueprints. "Intend" is just another fancy way of saying "make plans" or to have something in mind to be done. I even checked the dictionary to be sure that I was interpreting the word correctly. XD If the billionaire wanted the plans to actually be used, then he should've made drinking the vial not an optional part of the deal. but since it clearly states that you don't have to drink it to get the money, he obviously only wants you to make some plans to drink it, or think about drinking it. --- Nah, I'm choosing my boxes based on odds (of getting any amount of money, not the highest amount of money. XD) |
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Post by Yoyti on Jan 20, 2012 6:59:35 GMT -5
No. If I make a plan to drink it, that's planning. XD For example, if I write down my plan on some paper... "Plan to drink toxin in 3 easy steps: Step 1: Go to kitchen. Step 2. Take vial. Step 3. Drink vial" Maybe even draw up some blueprints. "Intend" is just another fancy way of saying "make plans" or to have something in mind to be done. I even checked the dictionary to be sure that I was interpreting the word correctly. XD I can make plans to rob a bank, but that doesn't mean I intend to rob a bank. In fact, often, when I'm bored, I'll think of ways to break in to buildings, for the purposes of writing mysteries. You may make a plan to drink the poison, but if you don't intend to go through with the plan, you don't actually intend to drink the poison. I've heard two clever answers to Kavka's toxin. The first was that you'd put the vial in some other room while you sit down on the couch. When the time comes to drink the toxin, you'll be too lazy to get up. My friend told this to me, explaining that it's the same principal on which he does a lot of stuff. The second answer was to transfer all your money to some other bank account, and get that locked for a couple of days, so you can't access any of your money. Dispose of all the liquids in your house, and eat salty foods. You'll be parched, and will have no other choice but to drink the toxin. But then morning rolls around, and you have one-million dollars. You can go out and buy a drink. But both those answers, while clever, wouldn't work, since the billionaire would know that you'd not actually intend to drink the toxin, and the elaborate plan was drawn in which you'd drink the toxin specifically so that you wouldn't have to drink the toxin. |
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Post by Lord Faerigan on Jan 20, 2012 7:28:44 GMT -5
No pain, no gain. I would intend to drink the poison, take the money and actually drink the poison.
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Post by Killix on Jan 20, 2012 15:23:00 GMT -5
I can make plans to rob a bank, but that doesn't mean I intend to rob a bank. In fact, often, when I'm bored, I'll think of ways to break in to buildings, for the purposes of writing mysteries. You may make a plan to drink the poison, but if you don't intend to go through with the plan, you don't actually intend to drink the poison. in·tend [in-tend] 1. to have in mind as something to be done or brought about; plan: "We intend to leave in a month drink the toxin." To "have something in mind to be done" is the meaning I was going with. I don't think it's the same as wanting to do something, and it doesn't mean that you are going to do something. Interestingly, a synonym for "intend" is "contemplate" If the billionaire reaaallly doesn't want me to just make plans and/or contemplate, then he needs to hand me a legal document to sign, written in detailed legal jargon that makes clear of his actual meaning. s(  )z 'cause I have no problem interpreting the instructions in that way. Actually, I think I'd like more information about the toxin. It's hard to make a plan for something that you don't know much about. - How much of this toxin is there? (a single drop? 600ml?) - How much of it would I have to drink before the effects took place? (instantly, no matter how much of it I drink? or maybe I only have to drink the whole vial in one swig or it doesn't work?) -Could it be diluted with other liquids? -Maybe the potency nulled by being mixed with food? (maybe I can bake it into a cake, or sautay something in it. XD) The billionaire never said that I had to drink the toxin, let alone the contents of the entire vial in one go. So could I plan to drink a little bit of the toxin at a time staggered in a way where I don't feel the effects? (In that case, this would be the plan I conjure. It covers both the "making a plan" angle, and the "you have to actually want to do it" angle.) Hmm... I have to "intend" at midnight to drink the toxin, but I can change my mind after I get the money. but wait. Hold on a moment. It says that I recieve the money hours before midnight. Midnight is when I have to plan/want to drink the toxin. Sooo... That means that I am free to change my mind and not want to drink the toxin before the deadline, and I'll still get the money. A lose-lose situation for this billionaire dude who obviously has nothing better to do than troll poor people with large amounts of money. XD |
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Post by Yoyti on Jan 20, 2012 16:15:00 GMT -5
in·tend [in-tend] 1. to have in mind as something to be done or brought about; plan: "We intend to leave in a month drink the toxin." To "have something in mind to be done" is the meaning I was going with. I don't think it's the same as wanting to do something, and it doesn't mean that you are going to do something. Interestingly, a synonym for "intend" is "contemplate" If the billionaire reaaallly doesn't want me to just make plans and/or contemplate, then he needs to hand me a legal document to sign, written in detailed legal jargon that makes clear of his actual meaning. s( )z 'cause I have no problem interpreting the instructions in that way. Actually, I think I'd like more information about the toxin. It's hard to make a plan for something that you don't know much about. - How much of this toxin is there? (a single drop? 600ml?) - How much of it would I have to drink before the effects took place? (instantly, no matter how much of it I drink? or maybe I only have to drink the whole vial in one swig or it doesn't work?) -Could it be diluted with other liquids? -Maybe the potency nulled by being mixed with food? (maybe I can bake it into a cake, or sautay something in it. XD) The billionaire never said that I had to drink the toxin, let alone the contents of the entire vial in one go. So could I plan to drink a little bit of the toxin at a time staggered in a way where I don't feel the effects? (In that case, this would be the plan I conjure. It covers both the "making a plan" angle, and the "you have to actually want to do it" angle.) Hmm... I have to "intend" at midnight to drink the toxin, but I can change my mind after I get the money. but wait. Hold on a moment. It says that I recieve the money hours before midnight. Midnight is when I have to plan/want to drink the toxin. Sooo... That means that I am free to change my mind and not want to drink the toxin before the deadline, and I'll still get the money. A lose-lose situation for this billionaire dude who obviously has nothing better to do than troll poor people with large amounts of money. XD You get the money tomorrow morning if you intend to drink the potion at midnight tonight. You have to intend first. Then you get the money. But keep in mind, your plan isn't actually to take the toxin. Your plan is an elaborate setup to avoid taking the toxin, even if you don't write it down that way on paper. |
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Post by M is for Morphine on Jan 20, 2012 16:23:40 GMT -5
Intend to take toxin
Take toxin
Induce vomiting
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Post by Gelquie on Jan 20, 2012 17:11:42 GMT -5
You get the money tomorrow morning if you intend to drink the potion at midnight tonight. You have to intend first. Then you get the money. But keep in mind, your plan isn't actually to take the toxin. Your plan is an elaborate setup to avoid taking the toxin, even if you don't write it down that way on paper. But the thing is, will the billionaire know that? It may be an elaborate set-up in one's mind to avoid taking the toxin, but we're assuming the billionaire isn't psychic. So unless you made it pretty plain that you weren't planning on drinking the toxin, the billionaire would have no way of knowing. It seems like the situation depends on how well you make your intentions known. (Or unknown, if you're lying to him.) |
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