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Post by Sock on Oct 15, 2011 11:53:31 GMT -5
The debate against universal healthcare isn't just about it being hard. There's also the debate about whether or not it's actually good either. Honestly, I've never heard any of my friends who live in countries with universal healthcare complain about it. I mean, I'm sure there are people who don't agree with it, just like anything else, but from what I've seen the opinion is overall good and the health of the citizens good as well.
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Post by Komori on Oct 15, 2011 12:36:53 GMT -5
Honestly, I've never heard any of my friends who live in countries with universal healthcare complain about it. ... Wait a second. Do you actually read the posts of others on this thread? Two people on the previous page just had complaints about those other countries! In the UK, we have free healthcare, and it causes no end of problems XD That's not to say that similar systems haven't been implemented well in other countries - Japanese people, for instance, pay next to nothing for healthcare. The tipping point, though, isn't that the government pays more; the doctors, pharmacies and hospitals just get paid less. A lot less. Japanese hospitals are practically in debt. So saying that the government should institute it 'for the good of the doctors' is downright silly - I can't even begin to comprehend the massive paycut those doctors would get! I could name you a lot of things that could be done to reform healthcare - like cutting the costs of drugs, making x-rays cheaper, having doctors order less x-rays - but that isn't one of 'em. Maybe you didn't intend it to sound that way, but I seem to get the feeling you are ignoring opposing points on this thread.
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Post by Crystal on Oct 15, 2011 14:28:42 GMT -5
Actually, I'm not opposed to the idea of universal healthcare. You're talking about how everyone should be able to be treated for a relatively cheap price/should be covered by insurance, right? There no way I would be against that.
Neither am I saying that the system America has at the moment is good. It isn't. In fact, for the amount y'all are paying for it, it's downright bad. The problem with the healthcare system in America is that to the best of my understanding, it wasn't 'designed' so much as it was 'evolved', and over time it's been patched and patched so much that it's turned into a giant, money-sucking monster.
What I don't agree with is what the guy brought up - a universal single-payer health insurance. That means that all private insurance companies would be shut down, the government would pay for all medical bills, and eventually the people pay through taxes. I don't think it'll ever work in the United States. Medicare, which is the closest thing you've got, is bloated and impossible, and costs so much, it's not even funny.
A system like that, you have to build it from the ground up, like how Taiwan did, and even then it still has lots of problems, like doctors getting paid a lot less, wait times in clinics, hospitals being unable to afford better technology, etc. You'd be better off going for something like what the Netherlands (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong, guys, it's been awhile since I last studied this) has, with everyone mandated to get insurance and insurers forced to cover everyone. And then a lot of trimming and cost-cutting. Not all that great, but... sort of remotely feasible? xD
Jo also brought up a good point about the size of the country, since many states in America are the size of Sweden. That adds another level of complexity - state governments have a lot of leeway over how they want to control their healthcare.
In essence, I'm saying that the dude in the second link did no research at all. >>; His economics would make Stal scream. And then cower. Like a cute little animal. =D
(Also, I'm definitely against paying more taxes. xDDDDD I pay over a thousand five hundred dollars in taxes every month; then I pay my bills, my insurance, my 401k, my tithes, and after all that if I can save anything for a car, it's a miracle. I shudder at the thought of 50% taxes like I think they have in Denmark (correct me if I'm wrong, Leo?))
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2011 14:38:29 GMT -5
Actually, I'm not opposed to the idea of universal healthcare. You're talking about how everyone should be able to be treated for a relatively cheap price/should be covered by insurance, right? There no way I would be against that. Neither am I saying that the system America has at the moment is good. It isn't. In fact, for the amount y'all are paying for it, it's downright bad. The problem with the healthcare system in America is that to the best of my understanding, it wasn't 'designed' so much as it was 'evolved', and over time it's been patched and patched so much that it's turned into a giant, money-sucking monster. What I don't agree with is what the guy brought up - a universal single-payer health insurance. That means that all private insurance companies would be shut down, the government would pay for all medical bills, and eventually the people pay through taxes. I don't think it'll ever work in the United States. Medicare, which is the closest thing you've got, is bloated and impossible. A system like that, you have to build it from the ground up, like how Taiwan did, and even then it still has lots of problems, like doctors getting paid a lot less, wait times in clinics, hospitals being unable to afford better technology, etc. (Also, I'm definitely against paying more taxes. xDDDDD I pay over a thousand dollars in taxes every month; then I pay my bills, my insurance, my 401k, my tithes, and after all that if I can save anything for a car, it's a miracle. I shudder at the thought of 50% taxes like I think they have in Denmark (correct me if I'm wrong, Leo?)) I agree with this (the first two paragraphs, don't know exactly what to say about the third). I think there should be some way of assuring the poorest person's life could be saved. Because imagine if you were very poor and could not afford insurance, then your only child gets an illness and will die because you don't have insurance. This is what the president is trying to prevent. This healthcare thing, to me, has always been a life or death matter. The question is, do we save thousands of people's lives or not? I think the answer is clear.
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Post by Crystal on Oct 15, 2011 14:44:54 GMT -5
I agree with this (the first two paragraphs, don't know exactly what to say about the third). I think there should be some way of assuring the poorest person's life could be saved. Because imagine if you were very poor and could not afford insurance, then your only child gets an illness and will die because you don't have insurance. This is what the president is trying to prevent. This healthcare thing, to me, has always been a life or death matter. The question is, do we save thousands of people's lives or not? I think the answer is clear. Actually, under the, uh... EMTALA (I think) act, emergency rooms have to treat any patient whose life is in danger, regardless of their ability to pay. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_Labor_ActSo no, your child won't die... the system's not as incompetent as all that. But it's difficult for people with long-running diseases, and I can't say the current system isn't in need of a rehaul. Sorry for going on and on about this. ;_; Medical care is sort of a pet peeve of mine.
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Post by Stal on Oct 15, 2011 19:00:08 GMT -5
Goodness, Crystal, I'm not cowering. I'm laughing. Especially the conclusion. That list of demands would inherently destroy all jobs and businesses everywhere, period. XD when people start posting demands like that, and they're fairly representative of the people involved, it's hard to take them seriously. And I will say the guy didn't do any research--that's obvious. Lol, $20/hr min wage. That's $20 x 40 x 52 = $41,600 / yr I know several salaried workers that don't make that much! Now the guy in drive-thru at McDonald's would or a terribly unskilled job? Who'd ever go to college? Oh, wait, to get a better paying job. Because all the skilled jobs would now be paying more. Say 90k/yr for a good outside college job. And did I mention the insane inflation that'd come with everyone having that much more money--and businesses needing to make ends meet? Everyone would just end bak up where they started. Of course, this is ignoring the idea that most businesses would have to slash their workforce. So yeah, I lol. It's quaint idealism based in ignorance and a land of Magic Unicorns--not reality. Also based in personal greed and lack of personal accountability. And thievery.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2011 20:19:38 GMT -5
Today I headed over to Zuccotti Park and interviewed a few people. Also got hold of a few sheets, such as this "99% Declaration", which is somewhat saner than what that one guy posted. WHEREAS THE FIRST AMENDMENT TO THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION PROVIDES:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
BE IT RESOLVED THAT:
WE, THE NINETY-NINE PERCENT OF THE PEOPLE of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, in order to form a more perfect Union, by, for and of the PEOPLE, shall elect and convene a NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY to meet beginning on July 4, 2012 in the City Of Philadelphia.
I. Election of Delegates:
The People, consisting of all United States citizens who have reached the age of 18, regardless of party affiliation and voter registration status, shall elect Two Delegates, one male and one female, by direct vote, from each of the existing 435 Congressional Districts to represent the People at the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY in Philadelphia convening on July 4, 2012. The office of Delegate shall be open to all United States citizens who have reached the age of 18. Executive Committees, elected by local General Assemblies from all over the United States, shall organize, coordinate and fund this national election by direct democratic voting. The Executive Committees shall operate similarly to the original Committees of Correspondence during the first American Revolution.
II. Meeting of the National General Assembly and Deliberation:
At the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY, the 870 Delegates shall set forth, consider and vote upon a PETITION OF GRIEVANCES to be submitted to all members of Congress, The Supreme Court and President and each of the political candidates running in the nationwide Congressional and Presidential election in November 2012.
III. Proposed Petition for the Redress of Grievances:
This PETITION OF GRIEVANCES shall be non-partisan and address the critical issues now confronting the People of the United States and will be deliberated and voted upon by the 870 Delegates in consultation with the 99%.
The final version of the PETITION OF GRIEVANCES voted upon by the Delegates MAY or MAY NOT include the following issues:
1. Implementing an immediate ban on all private contributions of money and gifts, to all politicians in federal office, from Individuals, Corporations, Political Action Committees, Super Political Action Committees, Lobbyists, Unions and all other private sources of money to be replaced by the fair and equal public financing of all federal political campaigns. We REJECT the concept that money is equal to free speech because if that were so, then only the wealthiest would have a voice. These actions must be taken because it has become clear that politicians in the United States cannot regulate themselves and have become the exclusive representatives of corporations, unions and the very wealthy who spend vast sums of money on political campaigns to influence the candidates’ decisions and ensure their reelection year after year.
2. The immediate reversal of the outrageous holding in the "Citizens United" case by the Supreme Court, which equates the payment of money by corporations to politicians with free speech.
3. Prohibiting all public officials and their immediate family members, whether elected or appointed from EVER being employed by any corporation they regulate while in office.
4. A complete lifetime ban on accepting all gifts, services, money, directly or indirectly, to any elected or appointed officials or their immediate family members, from any person, corporation, union or other entity that the public official was charged to regulate while in office.
5. A complete reformation of the United States Tax Code to require ALL citizens to pay a fair share of a progressive, graduated income tax by eliminating loopholes, unfair tax breaks, exemptions and deductions, subsidies (e.g. oil, gas and farm) and ending all other methods of evading taxes. The current system of taxation favors the wealthiest Americans, many of who pay fewer taxes to the United States Treasury than citizens who earn much less and pay a much higher percentage of income in taxes to the United States Treasury.
6. Medicare for all American citizens adjusted by a means test (i.e. citizens who can afford it will opt-out of Medicare and pay their own health insurance or opt-in and pay a means tested Medicare premium). The Medicaid program, fraught with corruption and fraud, will be eliminated except for the purpose of providing emergency room care to indigent non-citizens who will not be covered by Medicare-for-all.
7. Passage of a balanced budget amendment to the United States Constitution and an amendment to eliminate the Electoral College so that the President of the United States will be elected by the popular vote.
8. Adoption of an immediate plan to reduce the national debt to a sustainable percentage of GDP by 2020.
9. Passage of a comprehensive job and job-training bill to employ our citizens in jobs that are available with specialized training and by putting People to work tomorrow by repairing America's crumbling infrastructure.
10. Student loan debt relief. Our young People and students are more than $830 billion in debt from education loans alone. Payment and interest on these debts should be deferred for periods of unemployment and the principal reduced using a corporate tax surcharge and by extending the age to collect social security from 65 to 70. Education is a national security issue and it protects our future.
11. Immediate passage of the Dream Act and comprehensive immigration and border security reform including offering visas, lawful permanent resident status and citizenship to the world’s brightest People to come and work in our industries and schools.
12. Recalling all military personnel at all non-essential bases and refocusing national defense goals to address threats posed by the geopolitics of the 21st century, terrorism and limiting the large scale deployment of military forces to instances where Congressional approval has been granted to counter the Military Industrial Complex's goal of perpetual war for profit.
13. Mandating new educational goals to train the American public to perform jobs in a 21st Century economy, particularly in the areas of technology and green energy, taking into consideration the redundancy caused by technology and the inexpensive cost of labor in China, India and other countries and paying our teachers a salary that is competitive with the private sector.
14. Subject to the elimination of corporate tax loopholes and exploited exemptions and deductions stated above, offering tax incentives to businesses to reconstruct the manufacturing capacity of the United States and reinstitution of the Works Progress Administration and Civilian Conservation Corps and other emergency governmental agencies required to create new public works projects to provide jobs to the 46 million People living in poverty, the 9.1% unemployed and 10% underemployed.
15. Implementing immediate legislation to encourage China and our other trading partners to end currency manipulation or impose a consumption tax on goods that those countries export to the United States calculated by comparing the fair market value of the currency to the manipulated valuation.
16. Immediate reenactment of the Glass-Steagall Act and increased regulation of Wall Street by the SEC, FINRA and NASD, and the commencement of a Justice Department criminal investigations into the Securities and Banking industries pertaining to the collapse of markets and financial firm failures in 2007-2008.
17. Adoption of President Clinton’s plan to end the mortgage crisis and instead of continuing to lower interest rates for loans to banks who are refusing to loan to small businesses and consumers, have the Federal Reserve buy up all underwater or foreclosed mortgages and refinance the these debt at 1% or less to be managed by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac since 1% or less is the interest rate the Federal Reserve loans to the banks directly who only hoard the cash rather than loan it to the People.
18. An immediate one year freeze on all foreclosures to be reviewed by an independent special task force appointed by Congress and the Executive Branch to determine, on a case by case basis, whether foreclosure proceedings should continue based on the circumstances of each homeowner.
19. Subject to the above ban on money and gifts in politics, additional campaign finance reform requiring free air time and public campaign finances to all candidates who obtain sufficient petition signatures and/or votes to participate in the primaries and/or electoral process, shortening the campaign season and allow voting on weekends and holidays. Voting must be accessible to all citizens for democracy to work.
20. An immediate withdrawal of all troops from Iraq and Afghanistan and a substantial increase in the amount of funding needed for veteran job placement and the treatment of the physical and emotional injuries sustained by veterans in these wars. Our veterans are committing suicide at an unprecedented rate and we must help now.
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVLED that IF the PETITION OF GRIEVANCES approved by the 870 Delegates of the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY in consultation with the PEOPLE, are not acted upon and implemented to the satisfaction of the Delegates of the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY within ONE YEAR of presentment of the PETITION OF GRIEVANCES to the government, said Delegates shall begin to organize a THIRD INDEPENDENT POLITICAL PARTY to run candidates in the mid-term election of 2014. There was also this socialist paper that used the word "bourgeois" repeatedly. Anywho! There were tons of smokers. There were some folks wearing Guy Fawkes masks. There was a place where people sat down, wrote their "I am the 99%" stories on a small whiteboard, and got photographed. There was a medical tent. There were people snoozing in sleeping bags, holding up signs, reading books from the OWS makeshift library, and playing guitar. It had a very Woodstock-y feel, I guess? Out of the huge crowd, I talked to twelve or so people. Most were friendly enough and polite, save for a few people whom I was probably annoying. The education levels varied--there was a GED, a BA in political science and a master's in theater, a PhD in economics, an associate's in pre-med, a master's in mathematics, two who had to drop out of college because of messes with financial aid and scholarships (they were going to major in film and history, I believe), a master's in management and public affairs, and a few with plain old high school diplomas. One guy, who was very interesting to talk to, had graduated from a theater school in France. And then there was this really old guy who had served in World War II and worked on a Democratic committee opposing the Vietnam War. Some phrases I heard a lot were "I can't speak for the movement, but...", "the opinions are varied", and "the point of the movement is to increase awareness and get people talking/thinking". The main issues, they said, included money in politics, the consolidation of wealth, the notion of corporations as people, corporations not playing by a certain set of rules, and dishonest, dysfunctional government. The "how" I didn't ask enough about, admittedly. >> Although this one guy talked about building "liberty gardens" where we grow our own food so that we are liberated from the supermarkets. x3 Oh, and there was a table set up by a socialist organization. The guy there said they had come to join in and express their voices, though they don't think the movement will be effective. Mentioned it to another person I'd interviewed earlier and he said, "Yeah, they latch on to every popular movement." Didn't get to interview the police, since they weren't taking questions, but overall...it was interesting. I'm still not sure how to feel about it, as I don't know much about politics and economics beyond some very basic things (and even that, barely), but it helped somewhat to see the whole thing up close.
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Post by Gav on Oct 15, 2011 22:45:23 GMT -5
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Post by Crystal on Oct 16, 2011 1:05:42 GMT -5
Goodness, Crystal, I'm not cowering. I'm laughing. Especially the conclusion. That list of demands would inherently destroy all jobs and businesses everywhere, period. XD when people start posting demands like that, and they're fairly representative of the people involved, it's hard to take them seriously. And I will say the guy didn't do any research--that's obvious. Nah, I don't think he's representative. xD If you'll read the comments, there are a lot of people involved in OWS who are all "Why?! Why do people believe this of us?! sob." I'd say he's an outlier; I'd like to think that most people out there are like how Nat described them. A friend did bring up, on discussion, that a plausible reason behind them not presenting a unified list of demands was that coming up with unified demands always tends to fracture a group, and they're not keen on that.
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Post by The Wanderer on Oct 16, 2011 9:24:11 GMT -5
I work in a factory. And I know what it might feel like to be looked down upon, and otherwise feel helpless about things that are apparently beyond my control.
But I remember why I'm there. I'm there because I deliberately turned away from transferring over to a 4-year university, and getting a bachelor's. I'm there because of bad habits in work ethics, and out of stubbornness and pride.
I'd almost like to say that I have a future there, but knowing that someone could fill my post within a week, or the management simply deciding they could get it done cheaper and better elsewhere is a real drag.
Let me stress that what I'm about to say is based off of personal observation, and perception, and NOT sourced material written anywhere.
The American Manufacturing sector is in shambles, because we've allowed it to be. How often do you see the words "Made in the USA" on an item you use every day? How many jokes have you heard about the quality of said products? How often do they break down much sooner than a competitor's brand from abroad?
You know, it's one thing to complain about the fact that jobs are fleeing this country to others, thanks to NAFTA or thanks to wide-open loopholes in trade policies. It's another point entirely to see American factory workers in the face of all this continue to take shortcuts, and simply not care about the halfhearted effort they may have put on the item they're taking part in making.
It's one thing to complain about how "37 percent of Americans are living below the poverty line." It's another to see that many of them still have cars that work, and a roof over their heads.
I'm not saying we don't have problems. We do, and certainly would need to stop bickering, and start making valid points about how we can fix these problems. What I'm saying is, this could be a lot worse. And I dont believe that simply holding up signs in front of the Stock Exchange is going to make the changes we really need to see.
These protesters might have done the right thing by keeping it varied and non-centric, but you know that if this continues long enough, some instigators will stir up trouble, get countered by the police, and people otherwise not involved begin to escalate it. I also believe that for all the valid points, and realistic opinions amongst the voices in this crowd, there are two more for each of the wild outlandish ones that very few people could agree with. They know they're the "underdogs." And the underdogs know they have to bark louder, in order to be heard. And when you have critical elections over the course of the coming days/months, you have politicians looking for votes. And when you have media agencies looking for ways to bolster falling ratings, you have highlights on the "average joe" types.
My point being that the ones with the ideas that would not be benefiting the greater majority will likely have their case taken before someone with the clout to start something. That is unless more people shake themselves out of the trance of believing everything is okay, and they need not try to do something as simple as dropping a suggestion in the suggestion box.
It irks me to know that there are people out there with good ideas that may actually work, and wouldnt disrupt the euphoria of our carefree routines, and see them buried under headlines about things like flat wages, or focus-fire on CEO's. People griping and moaning about specific items are failing to see the big picture, and I in turn, am failing to see the helpful solutions they may have brought to the table. Because to me, many of these people are simply acting in anger, and not to keeping their heads on straight.
Right now, this so-called "99%" is too divided, too disorganized, and too apathetic about all the many problems plaguing us. If people want to see a real change, then from now on, let it not be about Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Socialist, Communist, Fascist, or whatever. Let it not be about who gets what, or who gets more.
Let this be about what really matters: Giving us a future we can all look towards with more confidence than we can in our current state.
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Post by Sock on Oct 17, 2011 17:38:13 GMT -5
Honestly, I've never heard any of my friends who live in countries with universal healthcare complain about it. ... Wait a second. Do you actually read the posts of others on this thread? Two people on the previous page just had complaints about those other countries! Nope, I don't read the posts of others. Clearly. Hence why I've been quoting people in my posts this whole time. There's no reason to be unnecessarily rude.
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Post by Komori on Oct 17, 2011 21:28:45 GMT -5
Apologies, I didn't mean for it to sound unnecessarily rude. I was merely pointing out a trait I've observed during this thread, how you tend to ignore opposing points completely. Kind of like how you've ignored the point I was making about there being opposing viewpoints to universal healthcare, in order to accuse me of being rude.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2011 21:49:52 GMT -5
I've been lurking this thread and I find it very interesting to read different viewpoints. I really don't know enough about the US, economics, politics or healthcare to get involved, though.
But there isn't any need to get snippy at each other. There are other ways to make your point without poking needles at the person behind the avatar, yes? ^_^ If you'd like a response from a specific person the best way to actually get it is to point back to it and ask politely. I'm sure people don't purposely ignore posts, and I know I often pass over some posts if I can't think of anything to reply with. ^^
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Post by Sock on Oct 17, 2011 23:13:01 GMT -5
I've actually read every post here, just sometimes I don't know what to reply with or don't know enough about the subject to answer. I would rather not reply than spout off if I don't know what to say.
But obviously I'm not contributing anything and just being a bother, so I'm just going to leave this thread.
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Post by Avery on Oct 17, 2011 23:29:38 GMT -5
Guys, please just cool off a little. Everyone has the right to their opinion, and no one is being a "bother". If this topic is too charged for somebody, then definitely step away. But I don't think anybody involved in this debate wants their fellow debaters to feel unwelcome, alright? So please no personal jabs.
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