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Post by Joker on Jul 15, 2011 23:05:42 GMT -5
It might arguably be nice to live in a world full of children, provided there was a magical power to keep them all from starving. Although based on my personal observations, I've noticed that young children tend to be selfish and often unintentionally cruel, and then from about age 10-15 is just kind of an awkward uncomfortable phase. xD So, while there were a lot of things I loved about being a kid, I wouldn't actually want to go back to it.
More importantly, I'd say that it's not really a conscious decision anyone makes to say, "Oh I've turned eighteen now! Better stop being happy and imaginative, and get down to business in the real world." It's more that when you reach a certain age, your interests change. Your personality changes. It's not a bad thing at all, and believe me, adults can have plenty of fun, even if their fun usually doesn't seem very fun to children. I don't recall anyone ever telling me to grow up or lose my inner child; at some point it happened naturally. Anyway, there's a certain carefree quality I miss about being nine, but independence has its bonuses. There's something very satisfying about swiping your own credit card and going out whenever you want!
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Post by Cow-winkle on Jul 15, 2011 23:49:58 GMT -5
Sarn, I know you don't mean to be offensive, but...I really do believe in this stuff. I'm not asking you to, but please don't try to change my mind. I would never, ever try to change yours. You did put this thread into the Discussion and Debate board. As someone who doesn't believe in magic, I can't help but get the impression that you're trying to change the minds of people like me when you say things like this (italics mine): Losing that special inner fairy is only going to result in bored, bitter people. And that is just going to lead to a grey cloud hanging over the entire planet. And people will be depressed, and angry, and it will lead to an increase of crime. . . . I think that bell is a metaphor for the magic in a child's life. Take that bell away, you're left with almost no soul. I'm not offended by statements like that, but I do hope that you'll understand that, when one makes such statements, one should be prepared to defend them. Saeryana, you seem like a sensitive person and I like you, but you've said a lot of things that I don't agree with, and I'm not going to be so condescending as to pretend that I do. This is something I think about a lot, so this is a pretty long post; sorry I didn't have time to write a short one. There are several premises you seem to be implying in your question that I don't agree with: - "Not believing in fairy tales equals not having a sense of wonder or beauty about the world." Are you under the impression that people who don't believe in mythical creatures and Narnia-style doors that lead to other universes don't think that things can be beautiful or that life has any meaning? Most of the adults who write fantasy stories don't actually believe that the beings in the story physically exist or that the events literally happened, but that shouldn't take away from the enjoyment of the stories themselves. Also, some people just have different interests, and don't find much use in fairy tales when they grow up. Again, that's not the same as believing that nothing is beautiful or meaningful, it just means that they don't have the same interests that I have, and that doesn't necessarily make them less interesting people. - "Adults are always empirical and rational, and that's what's wrong with the world." Adults believe in things without evidence all the time, and I don't think it's a good thing. Remember Harold Camping and the May 21st Judgement? And on the topic of the end of the world, how about all the hoopla about December 2012? There's a reason that psychics, faith healers and astrologers stay in business. Adults love indulging in fantasies, and hucksters love to exploit those fantasies for profit whenever they can. - "Believing in magic and myths makes people happy." When I was a child and other kids told me about ghosts, zombies, demons and vampires with the intention of making me believe that they actually existed, I thought the concepts were interesting, but I don't think I ever actually believed them. But in moments of weakness, that didn't stop me from getting a little freaked out -- the fact that other people believed in such things made them seem just a bit more real to me, and not in a good way. Heck, even Santa Claus seemed creepy in some ways, just thinking that he was spying on me all the time, and that this madman who had only met me in shopping malls -- and never seemed to remember my name -- was in control of what I would get for Christmas. It seems funny now, but when kids take this stuff seriously, they can get a little freaked out. I think kids have enough real problems without having to make up new ones. Also, just because we haven't seen something yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Heck, we didn't know about single-celled organisms for - well, centuries! People only 100 years ago would find the idea preposterous. Well, for a long time, no one had any evidence that such organisms existed, so I wouldn't have blamed people who lived before the discovery of microorganisms for not knowing that they existed (also, people have known about microorganisms since the 1600s, when scientists started using microscopes to look at living things). It seems to me that, until there's evidence that something exists, then to believe that it exists is not rational. Imaginative speculation can lead to fruitful scientific discoveries, i.e. "Do microscopic organisms exist, and if so, how might we find out?" But that's not the same as just believing something independently of the search for evidence, i.e. "I'm going to believe in microorganisms, whether or not there's any evidence!" Good scientists design their hypotheses to be falsifiable. I think real child raising should be about not telling people what to believe, but telling them how to stay safe. In some cases, you can't have one without the other. If a child believes that cars have minds of their own and can break quickly even before the driver notices, that child is more likely to run into the street and get hit by a car. If a child believes that all wild animals are friendly and love being around humans, that child is more likely to try to pet a bear or a cougar and get attacked (and where I live, bears and cougars are a real concern). Believing in things without any regard for whether they're true or not can be positively harmful. If someone suggested that living a good life meant nurturing an active imagination and ability to appreciate fantasies while also having a firm grip on reality, I would agree with that statement. If they suggested that it meant disregarding evidence, being credulous and having no concept of true or false, I would disagree. |
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Post by Avery on Jul 16, 2011 1:23:49 GMT -5
I pretty much agree with Dju/Cow/what others have said. Growing up doesn't mean abandoning all ideas of wonderment and beauty in the world. One doesn't have to believe in fairy tales or magic for them to have an imagination, and saying that discarding these childhood ideals is tantamount to losing your imagination, that it will create mindless, bitter drones, is a blanket statement at best, incredibly naive and a little concerning at worst.
I also think childhood is glorified, honestly. Yes, you're naive, the world seems like rainbows and butterflies, but I don't believe ignorance is bliss. Ignorance can be dangerous, as Cow said. I'm not suggesting having little hold-over beliefs from childhood-- things that can't be rationalized, but you still hold close to your heart-- are necessarily detrimental. But at the same time, I think an important part of the maturation process is being able to discern between fantasy and reality, being able to reason and view things empirically, skeptically.
I think childhood would be sad without beliefs of fairies and summer afternoons looking for the portal to Narnia, or whatever. But at a certain point it is to be expected that a person will mature beyond this state and realize that... no, there probably isn't some magical doorway to another dimension lingering around the corner. And if you want to still believe that, okay. As Sarn said, it might not be viewed positively, nor will others likely accept it in a professional setting, etc. But I'm not going to tell you what or what not to believe.
That said, I find it a bit odd classing anyone who has indeed outgrown childhood mysticism as bitter or lacking imagination. The two just don't correlate. One doesn't cause the other. Some people are incredibly cynical and don't have much of an imagination. But that is not in any way caused by growing out of typically juvenile beliefs. You can't just string occurrences together and force them to relate, to be dependent on each other.
So yeah. Rambling now. XD But as I said, pretty much agree with Dju and Sarn and Cow and others that have posted here. =3
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Post by Luna on Jul 16, 2011 1:50:19 GMT -5
I'm probably repeating what a bunch of people said but:
Growing up doesn't mean you can't believe. But I world full of childish adults would be horrible. Child can't handle situations like adults can. It might be better for an adult to put aside their belief in whatever so they can handle things they need to handle. A child's brain isn't fully developed, they don't know things and tend to do things that get them hurt, sometimes because of there imagination. If adults didn't think things through and did things because of there imagination, people would be getting hurt. I'm not saying adults can us there imagination, but there are times when they need to shut it off.
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Post by M is for Morphine on Jul 16, 2011 2:44:42 GMT -5
I think a lot of people lose their credulity as a safety mechanism of sorts. When you believe in things without any evidence, you open yourself up to all sorts of scammers and charlatans. It is important for children to learn not to blindly believe in something just because it sounds nice. It would be nice if all strangers were kind and really had candy for you, but putting your faith in that would be dangerous.
Does believing in faeries and magical doors really make the world a better place? I mean, it makes you feel better which is valuable, but does it do any more than that? Did you consider that maybe people put away happy dreams so they can make a better reality?
I'm not saying you have to ever give up your wonder. Keep looking for mermaids all you want, it's not hurting anyone. However, I don't believe in faeries, magic doors, Santa, or any of those things. That doesn't make me bored or bitter. My world is still beautiful! I walk down the street and I see people holding hands and children's drawings displayed in windows. People loving each other, loving their kids... isn't that a wonder?
I feel that if you have to depend on mythical creatures to make the world a mysterious and wonderful place, that you are missing the real wonders that are going on every day!
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Post by Tam on Jul 16, 2011 4:28:05 GMT -5
I've found I prefer to believe in the people who make the stories about gods and dragons and magic. :3
Think about it. The fact that we — tiny, ordinary life forms in the midst of a vast universe — are capable of creating such beautiful things using nothing but our imagination, our passion, and our knack for noticing the details in the world around us is nothing short of awe-inspiring. That's what real magic is to me, if I had to define it. Sure, there are people out there who don't have an overabundance of curiosity or wonder in them. There are also people who don't change their socks as often as they should. xD It doesn't mean there's something wrong with humanity; it just means we're all different. We all excel in areas where others fail, and vice versa.
But never feel disillusioned with what we are capable of on the whole (yes, even as adults). We make these things real by imagining they can be. Whether or not everyone in the world believes in them has no bearing on what, or how much, they need to mean to you.
(Also, as a side note, the imagination, wonder, and curiosity of a child is something I value very deeply, but I want to quote my children's literature prof here: "Anyone who believes that the young of any species is perfectly innocent and pure did not grow up on a farm.")
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Post by Huntress on Jul 16, 2011 9:08:27 GMT -5
People seem to confuse the terms "childish" and "childlike" a lot in this particular question. And get them muddled. And then you might get one person who argues the "childish" side of the coin while the other argues the "childlike" side of the coin and they won't even realize that they're talking about two different things because the terminology is so similar.
Basically, the way I see it, childish and childlike are the two opposite yin-yang type sides of the same coin (coin called the Inner Child, for the purposes of this debate). Being childish is considered a negative thing. Childish people are egoistical, naive, unable to function in the society independently and without guidance, place their wants before their needs or even other people's needs, you know what I mean. Whereas being childlike is considered a positive thing. Childlike people are able to find happiness in the small mundane everyday things: the messages the wind carries, the great hope of something big and unfathomable and awesome that you're not quite able to grasp about the universe but that's out there somewhere, knowing that there's so much ahead of you to be explored. The mindset where every rock can be a castle and every pond can be an ocean. The ability to dream.
And it's up to the individual how they use this coin. Some people are childish without being childlike. Some are childlike without being childish. Some are both, and that's a pretty bad spot to be in because that's really only acceptable in children as far as the society is concerned. As far as I'm concerned, it's entirely possible to be a well-rounded functioning adult who chooses to be childlike in several ways; and if you're a well-rounded functioning adult, you're presumably capable of choosing the mindset that carries the positive traits without dragging along the negative traits that can end up harming you and those around you.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2011 9:14:18 GMT -5
My uncle held a long speech for me when I was confirmated. I don't remember all of it, but one part stood out and stuck with me ever since:
"Don't forget your inner child as you grow up. The inner child makes you playful, imaginative and creative. People who have forgotten their inner child, switched the waterguns out with real guns."
He was obviously speaking metaphorically, but I definitely understood the meaning and I've kept it with me always.
Being an adult means you are more rational and limited by a certain amount of boundaries to be able to fit into a society full of norms. But most adults are still in tune with their inner child; creativity, fantasy, art, music... anything that can be created from the imagination is feeded from our inner child.
As for the beliefs in magic and supernatural things, I'd say is up to the individual.
If Cookie comes to me when she's around 3 years old and asks me: "Mommy, does Santa Clause really exist?" Then I will tell her: "Do -you- believe he exists?"
After all, millions, probably billions of people believe in some sort of god, wich has yet to be proven to exist, scientifically. So, if you believe in magic, you have every right to... if it feels right to you. (The religious part was meant to prove a point, so please do not turn the discussion in that direction)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2011 9:57:37 GMT -5
Thanks, Leo.
Anyway, I didn't really say the point was you had to believe in certain things. Sure, of course it's irrational to think that cars can see you, but any sort of belief in God or anything supernatural is a personal choice.
Now, people do change, and they can change beliefs on their own, which is their right. What this is really about is (or what I thought it was), "should parents try to force their child to change?"
As an example, if a child believes toys are alive and truly there for you, that is not an unsafe belief. It's just a Velvateen Rabbit philosophy, and it makes a child very happy and feeling loved. They can turn to toys when sad because the toys are always there to give a comforting hug.
Now, suppose the parent repeatedly tells the child that what (s)he thought is not true, and one day, the child believes the parent. Then, most likely they will look into the eyes of their favorite toy and feel that there's absolutely no one looking back, and that the hugs mean nothing. They will no longer feel the love flowing to them from the toy (which you don't have to believe is real).
And that will make a very unhappy child. (S)he will feel as though (s)he's lost a part of her life.
So...you do not have to believe in the stuff, but you really shouldn't try to change the children who do. It'll just make them sad.
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Post by Dju on Jul 16, 2011 10:25:34 GMT -5
Thanks, Leo. Anyway, I didn't really say the point was you had to believe in certain things. Sure, of course it's irrational to think that cars can see you, but any sort of belief in God or anything supernatural is a personal choice. Now, people do change, and they can change beliefs on their own, which is their right. What this is really about is (or what I thought it was), "should parents try to force their child to change?" As an example, if a child believes toys are alive and truly there for you, that is not an unsafe belief. It's just a Velvateen Rabbit philosophy, and it makes a child very happy and feeling loved. They can turn to toys when sad because the toys are always there to give a comforting hug. Now, suppose the parent repeatedly tells the child that what (s)he thought is not true, and one day, the child believes the parent. Then, most likely they will look into the eyes of their favorite toy and feel that there's absolutely no one looking back, and that the hugs mean nothing. They will no longer feel the love flowing to them from the toy (which you don't have to believe is real). And that will make a very unhappy child. (S)he will feel as though (s)he's lost a part of her life. So...you do not have to believe in the stuff, but you really shouldn't try to change the children who do. It'll just make them sad. Sae, I think you're talking about those rare types of parents that don't let their kids play, right? Well, I honestly think it won't work. When I saw Toy Story for the first time I was amazed. Since that day I always took care of my toys differently, I gave them personalities, but I knew that they wouldn't get up one day and talk back to me, I knew they weren't alive, but I loved making them alive. It was only my imagination, and I'm really glad I wasn't blinded by fairy tales because it'd made me wait hours and hours for them to wake up instead of playing. Not to mention the crying after that. Same goes for Santa, I knew he wasn't real since the beginning, not because I didn't want to, it was...instinct, I guess! XD But I really liked leaving cookies so my parents would eat them behind my back! :3 It was fun, and they knew that they wouldn't have to come to me one day and say 'Hey Dju, sorry but Santa isn't real.." and make them feel like liars for all that long. I believe that everyone knows magic creatures aren't real, but that never stopped us from writing tales, drawing pictures, making movies...they can't exist, but just like the toys I gave personalities, we all love making them alive even though we know they will never walk up to us and take us to Wonderland. I guess that when we grow up, we realize that. No parents need to tell their children that fairy tales aren't real, because deep inside we know they are not, we won't cry if someone tells us it's a lie. You get what I mean? XD it's hard to explain, I'm terrible with words...let's just say that reality comes to us naturally, but that imagination stays, too. You just find a way to balance reality with imagination. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2011 10:31:14 GMT -5
Thanks, Leo. Anyway, I didn't really say the point was you had to believe in certain things. Sure, of course it's irrational to think that cars can see you, but any sort of belief in God or anything supernatural is a personal choice. Now, people do change, and they can change beliefs on their own, which is their right. What this is really about is (or what I thought it was), "should parents try to force their child to change?" As an example, if a child believes toys are alive and truly there for you, that is not an unsafe belief. It's just a Velvateen Rabbit philosophy, and it makes a child very happy and feeling loved. They can turn to toys when sad because the toys are always there to give a comforting hug. Now, suppose the parent repeatedly tells the child that what (s)he thought is not true, and one day, the child believes the parent. Then, most likely they will look into the eyes of their favorite toy and feel that there's absolutely no one looking back, and that the hugs mean nothing. They will no longer feel the love flowing to them from the toy (which you don't have to believe is real). And that will make a very unhappy child. (S)he will feel as though (s)he's lost a part of her life. So...you do not have to believe in the stuff, but you really shouldn't try to change the children who do. It'll just make them sad. Sae, I think you're talking about those rare types of parents that don't let their kids play, right? Well, I honestly think it won't work. When I saw Toy Story for the first time I was amazed. Since that day I always took care of my toys differently, I gave them personalities, but I knew that they wouldn't get up one day and talk back to me, I knew they weren't alive, but I loved making them alive. It was only my imagination, and I'm really glad I wasn't blinded by fairy tales because it'd made me wait hours and hours for them to wake up instead of playing. Not to mention the crying after that. Same goes for Santa, I knew he wasn't real since the beginning, not because I didn't want to, it was...instinct, I guess! XD But I really liked leaving cookies so my parents would eat them behind my back! :3 It was fun, and they knew that they wouldn't have to come to me one day and say 'Hey Dju, sorry but Santa isn't real.." and make them feel like liars for all that long. I believe that everyone knows magic creatures aren't real, but that never stopped us from writing tales, drawing pictures, making movies...they can't exist, but just like the toys I gave personalities, we all love making them alive even though we know they will never walk up to us and take us to Wonderland. I guess that when we grow up, we realize that. No parents need to tell their children that fairy tales aren't real, because deep inside we know they are not, we won't cry if someone tells us it's a lie. You get what I mean? XD it's hard to explain, I'm terrible with words...let's just say that reality comes to us naturally, but that imagination stays, too. You just find a way to balance reality with imagination. I don't necessarily think that they don't exist, but other than that I do agree that people who don't believe in the stuff from the beginning can be perfectly happy people. |
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Post by Huntress on Jul 16, 2011 10:34:25 GMT -5
Now, suppose the parent repeatedly tells the child that what (s)he thought is not true, and one day, the child believes the parent. Then, most likely they will look into the eyes of their favorite toy and feel that there's absolutely no one looking back, and that the hugs mean nothing. They will no longer feel the love flowing to them from the toy (which you don't have to believe is real). And that will make a very unhappy child. (S)he will feel as though (s)he's lost a part of her life. Well, I'd say that this here is a matter of putting all your eggs in one basket. If a child has absolutely no other outlet than a plush rabbit then they'll tell everything to that plush rabbit and put every last shred of their faith and trust and love in that rabbit, and if that ends one day, their world would literally crumble to pieces. Whereas if that child puts their love and trust and secrets in multiple things - sometimes they talk to the rabbit, sometimes to grandma, sometimes to a journal, sometimes to a friend - and one of them was to drop off one day, then they'd still have those other things, those eggbaskets to rely on. You might lose the rabbit, but you'd still be able to choose between the grandma and journal and friend to ease your loss with. And that wouldn't be anywhere near as hard. And at that rate, one day the kid will learn to discern between the eggbaskets, and see which of them actually really truly listen and help. Maybe the rabbit always was just a sack of plush and cotton and a Made in China tag, but at the same time grandma was always reliable and helpful and full of real love. Real love the kid would've completely missed if they'd only relied on the rabbit all the time. |
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Post by Komori on Jul 16, 2011 18:15:35 GMT -5
As an example, if a child believes toys are alive and truly there for you, that is not an unsafe belief. It's just a Velvateen Rabbit philosophy, and it makes a child very happy and feeling loved. They can turn to toys when sad because the toys are always there to give a comforting hug. Now, suppose the parent repeatedly tells the child that what (s)he thought is not true, and one day, the child believes the parent. Then, most likely they will look into the eyes of their favorite toy and feel that there's absolutely no one looking back, and that the hugs mean nothing. They will no longer feel the love flowing to them from the toy (which you don't have to believe is real). And that will make a very unhappy child. (S)he will feel as though (s)he's lost a part of her life. So...you do not have to believe in the stuff, but you really shouldn't try to change the children who do. It'll just make them sad. On the other hand, consider that the parent never tells their child the toy isn't alive, and continues to let them believe that. How much more crushed will that child be when they lose that toy? Say it gets broken or destroyed? How much more crushing would it be to get rid of toys when you have too many? Or, to be dramatic here, will the child rush into the street to save the "life" of a toy they consider to be alive? I don't think there's anything wrong with a parent correcting the realities of their own child. For starters, it's their child, they should be allowed to teach them the beliefs they want them to have. Sometimes I think some parents go to far, and reality-checks can sometimes be quite soul-crushing. But also I think some parents don't go far enough, letting their child run headlong into bad situations without the proper dose of reality (it's rarely safe to be naive). Still, it's the parents' right to mold their child, for better or worse. Makes me glad I'm not a parent, though.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2011 18:38:08 GMT -5
As an example, if a child believes toys are alive and truly there for you, that is not an unsafe belief. It's just a Velvateen Rabbit philosophy, and it makes a child very happy and feeling loved. They can turn to toys when sad because the toys are always there to give a comforting hug. Now, suppose the parent repeatedly tells the child that what (s)he thought is not true, and one day, the child believes the parent. Then, most likely they will look into the eyes of their favorite toy and feel that there's absolutely no one looking back, and that the hugs mean nothing. They will no longer feel the love flowing to them from the toy (which you don't have to believe is real). And that will make a very unhappy child. (S)he will feel as though (s)he's lost a part of her life. So...you do not have to believe in the stuff, but you really shouldn't try to change the children who do. It'll just make them sad. On the other hand, consider that the parent never tells their child the toy isn't alive, and continues to let them believe that. How much more crushed will that child be when they lose that toy? Say it gets broken or destroyed? How much more crushing would it be to get rid of toys when you have too many? Or, to be dramatic here, will the child rush into the street to save the "life" of a toy they consider to be alive? I don't think there's anything wrong with a parent correcting the realities of their own child. For starters, it's their child, they should be allowed to teach them the beliefs they want them to have. Sometimes I think some parents go to far, and reality-checks can sometimes be quite soul-crushing. But also I think some parents don't go far enough, letting their child run headlong into bad situations without the proper dose of reality (it's rarely safe to be naive). Still, it's the parents' right to mold their child, for better or worse. Makes me glad I'm not a parent, though. I'll have to respectfully disagree, here. There are certain people who really stick to their beliefs and would give their life for that of a toy. It kind of reminds me of people who think you shouldn't try to save anyone because we're not real, we're just walking heaps of chemicals who've invented personalities and love and all that (I do not believe that, I think it's ridiculous. Of course souls exist [to me]). One could compare a toy, in a sense, to a person or a pet. Also, I believe that from birth, we're our own people. What I don't like is how some adults assume children aren't real people until age eighteen. That is preposterous! No child is a copy of the parent. All children are individuals finding their way in the world, and they need to be respected and known for who they are, not who their parents/guardians are. Which may be very, very different - I once saw a movie in which the villain had a very sweet-natured, kind-hearted daughter. This girl had all the good qualities the woman lacked. So ask yourself - is it really right for one to judge people based on who their parents are? |
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Post by Dju on Jul 16, 2011 18:46:23 GMT -5
I think we lost our point here. XD What are we talking about right now? We started talking about fairy tales now we're in soul?  It's very confuzzing! |
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It's very confuzzing!