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Post by Cow-winkle on Jul 5, 2010 21:03:33 GMT -5
edit: So! Favorite non-straight celebrities, characters, 'ships, books/movies? =D Famous People: Stephen Fry, Ian McKellen, Graham Chapman, Portia de Rossi, David Hyde Pierce, Rick Mercer, George Takei, Ludwig Wittgenstein, Michelangelo, and of course, Neil Patrick Harris. You can put me on the PM list. Not that it matters, but on the TV Tropes scale, I'd be, like, 65/35.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2010 22:35:57 GMT -5
Oh yeah, like I know that people don't like it, what I wanna know is why they don't. I mean, religious/moral reasons exist, but if you've got no moral or religious ideals to follow then why is it a problem? My personal opinion is that of your average Christian. I don't agree with different sexual orientations, but I don't find it disgusting or anything like that. If you want to live your life like that then that's fine, I'll continue to love and support you as I would anyone else. *shrugs* So I don't really understand why there's such a strong negative reaction to it. Like ... ok everyone, if you don't agree with me (and you probably won't) then just imagine for a second that God is real and that his written laws in the Bible are true and should be kept. The Bible specifically says homosexuality is wrong, but there are also many other things that are wrong. Homosexuality isn't included in the 10 commandments, but lying is. And yet, when a liar confesses, they're most often forgiven and everyone moves on. Same goes with just about every other "sin" that isn't covered under the law of whatever country you live in. You confess, there may be some consequences, but in the end you're forgiven and you're fine. So why is being queer different? Also, I say "it" because always writing anything longer is annoying and my fingers won't be un-numb until my surgery. xD; Oh and I always avoided the word "queer" because it seemed offensive ... is it? If so, forgive me. D: If not then I'm rather surprised. Or is it relative to each person? Some people find the idea of same-sex relationships icky. I know people who aren't religious but still insist that it's "not natural" in some vague weird way, as if automobiles are natural and antibiotics are natural, but this isn't. It's, frankly, rather irritating when people say they don't support who you are and their reasoning is nonsensical and based on a fear of cooties. >_> As for your second question, if someone confesses to be homosexual, well, they're not going to stop just because they've told someone. I'm trying to find a simile to explain it in the context of your biblical scenario, but I don't think you can compare lying and being homosexual. Lying is something one chooses to do, and it almost always has a negative consequence. What negative consequences come from same-sex relationships? As for word choices, it tends to be relative to each person. A lot of people use certain words in an effort to reclaim them and make them less harmful. It's Pride Week in the city currently, and the Dyke March was the other day. Some people would find that offensive, but obviously the people in the parade don't. And it's also often a matter of context. Most people, you know, don't like to be insulted. xD So if you use the word 'queer' to refer to someone not exclusively heterosexual, and not as an epithet, I'm not offended. But if you're unsure, it's easiest to just ask the person if they have a problem with certain words. I've been lurking in this thread for a while. Nick dearest, can you put me on the list? I'm gay, for anyone who doesn't know, and am open to PMs. Oh my I seem to have rambled. Oh, no I wasn't comparing homosexuality to lying except to illustrate my point, that it seems to me that everyone views coming out as a sort of confession. I don't. I think it shouldn't be a big deal at all, you say it and its over and done with, hence why I asked my questions. But yeah, you guys have clarified things. ^^
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Post by Sock on Jul 5, 2010 23:33:07 GMT -5
Oh yeah, like I know that people don't like it, what I wanna know is why they don't. I mean, religious/moral reasons exist, but if you've got no moral or religious ideals to follow then why is it a problem? My personal opinion is that of your average Christian. I don't agree with different sexual orientations, but I don't find it disgusting or anything like that. If you want to live your life like that then that's fine, I'll continue to love and support you as I would anyone else. *shrugs* So I don't really understand why there's such a strong negative reaction to it. Like ... ok everyone, if you don't agree with me (and you probably won't) then just imagine for a second that God is real and that his written laws in the Bible are true and should be kept. The Bible specifically says homosexuality is wrong, but there are also many other things that are wrong. Homosexuality isn't included in the 10 commandments, but lying is. And yet, when a liar confesses, they're most often forgiven and everyone moves on. Same goes with just about every other "sin" that isn't covered under the law of whatever country you live in. You confess, there may be some consequences, but in the end you're forgiven and you're fine. So why is being queer different? Also, I say "it" because always writing anything longer is annoying and my fingers won't be un-numb until my surgery. xD; Oh and I always avoided the word "queer" because it seemed offensive ... is it? If so, forgive me. D: If not then I'm rather surprised. Or is it relative to each person? Actually, the Bible never explicitly mentions "homosexuality". The "lie with a man as with a woman" line comes from Leviticus, which a lot of modern Christians reject. Just a few lines over it says something against eating shellfish. And the other line that mentions homosexuality (I believe it's one of Paul's letters, but I don't know much about it) originally had a word meaning "effeminate" but got changed to "homosexuals" upon translation, and it still varies depending on which version of the Bible you've read. The thing about the Bible is even if you take it at complete face value, you have to realise that the translations have changed a lot and we've got sort of a weird game of Telephone happening. Even if the Bible is the word of God, it has still been tampered with and translated by men, who are at fault and I find it hard to believe that every single thing in the Bible is foolproof. Not to mention, everyone has a different interpretation. There are sects of Christianity that don't believe being gay is wrong. I really think that you just have to follow what you believe in your heart is what God wants. Anyway, assuming homosexuality is a sin (which I truly do not believe it would be), I think the reason it'd be worse than "coming out" as a liar is, from a Christian perspective, that sin will continue. The liar will probably stop lying after he confesses, but the homosexual can't stop being attracted to the same sex. But again, I truly don't believe that people make a choice to be gay or that it's a sin.
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Post by Shadaras on Jul 6, 2010 6:35:28 GMT -5
Sock--demisexual? Neat. I love how you can find a new word and suddenly have several new wholly different ways to think about yourself. *subsides into lurkery, pondering* Yes indeed! You can find out more about it here. That doesn't fit me, see. I can experience sexual attraction based purely on looks or the like; it's just that I'm so used to that sort of thing that I just ignore it and wait for proof that there's more of an attraction than just physical before I truly call it attraction.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2010 9:10:32 GMT -5
What really saddens me is how much hate LGBT evokes in conservative groups. It's almost up there with racism in the level of irrationality many people adopt when faced with the reality that not all individuals are the same. Having grown up in a predominantly catholic country, the standard was to disparage anything even slightly out of the heterosexual norm as the equivalent of the "f word". And it wasn't like it is the United States, where the term and its lesser equivalents are, albeit wrongly, used as a "filler insult". The amount of people who understood sexuality maturely was reduced to about 10% of the population. Imagine my disappointment when I went to live in the United States for a year and one of the first things I saw was Glenn Beck's hate-mongering TV show. (That being said, my disappointment eased quickly after I realized the potential unintentional comedy in his crazy rants.)
I think I'm bisexual. With a slight preference for women (I have a girlfriend), but bisexual nonetheless. I guess you could add me to your list. ^^
Some things I don't understand, however, are gay pride parades and movements. Although they seem like a wonderful way to express individuality, aren't some people afraid of being ostracized because of them? At least where I come from, such brash expressions of sexuality (regardless of which) could potentially leave you out of a job.
EDIT: edited for grammar.
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Post by Goosh on Jul 6, 2010 9:30:17 GMT -5
What really saddens me is how much hate LGBT evokes in conservative groups. It's almost up there with racism in the level of irrationality many people adopt when faced with the reality that not all individuals are the same. Having grown up in a predominantly catholic country, the standard was to disparage anything even slightly out of the heterosexual norm as the equivalent of the "f word". And it wasn't like it is the United States, where the term and its lesser equivalents are, albeit wrongly, used as a "filler insult". The amount of people who understood sexuality maturely was reduced to about 10% of the population. Imagine my disappointment when I went to live in the United States for a year and one of the first things I saw was Glenn Beck's completely hateful TV show. (That being said, my disappointment eased quickly after I realized the potential unintentional comedy in his crazy rants.) I think I'm bisexual. With a slight preference for women (I have a girlfriend), but bisexual nonetheless. I guess you could add me to your list. ^^ One thing I don't understand, however, is gay pride parades and movements. Although they seem like a wonderful way to express individuality, aren't some people afraid of being ostracized because of them? At least where I come from, such brash expressions of sexuality could potentially leave you out of a job. I imagine that's a very real scenario for some people, whether or not they're out of the closet. But even if someone doesn't feel secure attending a pride event, I think it can be uplifting to see other people celebrating their individuality and knowing that they aren't alone. In Canada, at least, employment discrimination based on sexual orientation is explicitly forbidden in the Charter of Rights. Not that that stops everyone.
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Post by Gav on Jul 6, 2010 10:12:40 GMT -5
What really saddens me is how much hate LGBT evokes in conservative groups. It's almost up there with racism in the level of irrationality many people adopt when faced with the reality that not all individuals are the same. Having grown up in a predominantly catholic country, the standard was to disparage anything even slightly out of the heterosexual norm as the equivalent of the "f word". And it wasn't like it is the United States, where the term and its lesser equivalents are, albeit wrongly, used as a "filler insult". The amount of people who understood sexuality maturely was reduced to about 10% of the population. Imagine my disappointment when I went to live in the United States for a year and one of the first things I saw was Glenn Beck's hate-mongering TV show. (That being said, my disappointment eased quickly after I realized the potential unintentional comedy in his crazy rants.) I think I'm bisexual. With a slight preference for women (I have a girlfriend), but bisexual nonetheless. I guess you could add me to your list. ^^ Some things I don't understand, however, are gay pride parades and movements. Although they seem like a wonderful way to express individuality, aren't some people afraid of being ostracized because of them? At least where I come from, such brash expressions of sexuality (regardless of which) could potentially leave you out of a job. EDIT: edited for grammar. I actually don't really advocate the parades. I have nothing against them personally, but I honestly don't see the ultimate good that comes of it. It is, essentially, rubbing it in the noses of the people who aren't comfortable with it, and is kinda hypocritical in that regard. To put it simply, if you want people to accept you, you also have to accept that some people just can't, for whatever reasons they have.
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Post by Enn on Jul 6, 2010 14:10:53 GMT -5
I've added Máfur, Goosh, Cow, Sablones - if I got any names wrong, or any PM prefs wrong, just say.
A few topics have come up :D
Pride parades. I'm torn on them. On the one hand, I don't feel like... gay guys in just their underwear and feathers is really helping stereotypes or making a compelling case. xD;; But I think that's a part of gay culture, and it's far more important that pride parades like that happen for many reasons- bringing up the issue of gay rights with a large event, showing LGBT individuals that it's ok to be out and proud of who you are, all that jazz. I think that's completely different from 'rubbing it in the face of those that don't like it'- if everything done is legal then those people will have to just put up with it, for all of the day or two the events happen.
Religion and homosexuality has been brought up... I think that's been widely, extensively discussed on Debate threads, and I'm sure it'll reappear sooner or later so I'll skip that
Stephen Fry and Ian McKellen are fantastic gay celebrities <3 Simon Amstell is also pretty hilarious. And I like the Scissor Sisters? If that counts. xD;;
And, uhh, I think most of the reasons to worry about coming out the closet have already been mentioned <3
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Post by M is for Morphine on Jul 6, 2010 18:21:25 GMT -5
There are so many gay people that I like in music:
Stephin Merritt (did music for Pete & pete! released an album of songs for Series of Unfortunate events!), Andy Bell (member of Erasure, wrote the song used in Robot Unicorn Attack), Claus Larsen, Klaus Nomi
There are also many cool trans and androgynous musicians, like Wendy Carlos (synth virtuoso, wrote the soundtracks to Clockwork Orange and Tron) and Genesis P-Orridge (pretty much invented industrial music).
In literature, I like the humorist David Sedaris. I also love William S. Burroughs, though I think he's might be an acquired taste. >.> My mom loves Rita Mae Brown, who writes mystery novels about a cat detective.
John Waters is my hero, seriously, and I love all of his Dreamland Players. Especially Mink Stole.
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Post by Enn on Jul 9, 2010 5:36:37 GMT -5
There was a big court case recently here in the UK! Gay asylum seekers from places where they'd face homophobic persecution had no protection on that basis and were, in some cases, being told to hide their sexuality and basically hope for the best. BBCSo the Supreme Court case comes along and, success, ruled that it's wrong of the government to send these asylum seekers back to where they can face this persecution. Unfortunately, one judge (Judge Rodger) decided to sum it up like this: "What is protected is the applicant's right to live freely and openly as a gay man. To illustrate the point with trivial stereotypical examples from British society: just as male heterosexuals are free to enjoy themselves playing rugby, drinking beer and talking about girls with their mates, so male homosexuals are to be free to enjoy themselves going to Kylie concerts, drinking exotically coloured cocktails and talking about boys with their straight female mates." The IndependentAnd of course that became the headline on the classiest rag in the country: <3 oh, and a Channel Island is finally getting around to lowering the age of consent for homosexuals to the same as heterosexuals. BBC
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Post by Enn on Jul 14, 2010 12:47:10 GMT -5
*Hesitantly ventures in* Do you mind if I join the group? ^.^; I've been looking for a supportive group for a while, so... By the way, feel free to PM me. I've added you to the list! :3 Welcome to the group. I don't think you could find more supportive people than the NTWF <3
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Post by Fj0rd on Jul 15, 2010 22:28:07 GMT -5
It amuses me when people say things about how "guys are..." or "girls are..." and so much of it just seems to be so dependent on heterosexuality being the only option. Like, if you assume that not-straight people exist, or look at it from the point of view of someone not straight, these frameworks just tumble. And by amuses me, I mean that otherwise I would have to go off and be really sad about the world for a while. But. >.> Yeah.
(Also: heteronormativity. What's up with that?)
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Post by Sock on Jul 16, 2010 12:46:42 GMT -5
It amuses me when people say things about how "guys are..." or "girls are..." and so much of it just seems to be so dependent on heterosexuality being the only option. Like, if you assume that not-straight people exist, or look at it from the point of view of someone not straight, these frameworks just tumble. And by amuses me, I mean that otherwise I would have to go off and be really sad about the world for a while. But. >.> Yeah. (Also: heteronormativity. What's up with that?) It's also pretty sexist to assume that all straight guys/girls think in some sort of hivemind. When people ask "what do girls like?" or "what do guys like?" it's like... just ask the person yourself.
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Post by Fj0rd on Jul 16, 2010 13:24:40 GMT -5
It amuses me when people say things about how "guys are..." or "girls are..." and so much of it just seems to be so dependent on heterosexuality being the only option. Like, if you assume that not-straight people exist, or look at it from the point of view of someone not straight, these frameworks just tumble. And by amuses me, I mean that otherwise I would have to go off and be really sad about the world for a while. But. >.> Yeah. (Also: heteronormativity. What's up with that?) It's also pretty sexist to assume that all straight guys/girls think in some sort of hivemind. When people ask "what do girls like?" or "what do guys like?" it's like... just ask the person yourself. That too. But I think that being not-straight gives perspective on that sort of thing because, like, I can't really ask "what do girls like?" when I'm confused about what to do in a romantic/relationship situation because... I am one too. XD If you're straight it seems like it's harder to get out of that framework.
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Post by Cow-winkle on Jul 16, 2010 19:47:07 GMT -5
It amuses me when people say things about how "guys are..." or "girls are..." and so much of it just seems to be so dependent on heterosexuality being the only option. Like, if you assume that not-straight people exist, or look at it from the point of view of someone not straight, these frameworks just tumble. And by amuses me, I mean that otherwise I would have to go off and be really sad about the world for a while. But. >.> Yeah. (Also: heteronormativity. What's up with that?) There are psychological differences between males and females which, on average, are true of straight people and gay people of both sexes. Humans aren't blank slates. But, psychology deals with general principles rather than individuals.
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