|
Post by Diana on May 31, 2016 15:49:10 GMT -5
On what the judge is looking for, the vibe I'm honestly getting is 'don't get your hopes up if you enter at the beginning of the story, because you will lose arbitrarily.' Because - well, it all comes back to why I keep coming and leaving since ~520. I'm in love with a memory, always, and it keeps pulling me back - but the state of things, now more than ever, constantly pushes me away when I return. It brings out a really ugly, judgmental side of me, because... again. There have been a few times these past few weeks where I've lost and gotten really upset over losing because I couldn't justify to myself why I'd lost. It didn't used to be like this, because the way the competition used to be, I was in constant awe of what everyone else was producing - and the few times where I still felt I did a better job than the winner, I implicitly trusted the Storyteller's judgement. With the stories we wrote and she directed, how could I not? But now I just... don't, and while I don't mind losing to you guys for the same reason I never minded losing to you guys, I can get really bitter when something I write gets shirked in favor of something that's three paragraphs long, or something that completely fails to progress the plot at all. Winning and losing in the Storytelling is much, much more serious than any other Neopets competition, because you cannot reuse what you wrote for a future competition, only one person can win, and the material that wins directs the next set of entrants. It's that 'there can only be one' aspect that consistently kept quality standards so brilliantly and inaccessibly high in the past. And when that changed... Let's just say I still haven't managed to put all the worms back in that can yet, and it's been at least five years. During the initial upheaval when the old Storyteller left, I'd lose to things I'd consider inferior and get salty about it, again from lack of trust and just general pettiness over the staff change - but the stuff that beat me then? I'd welcome it now, because some of the things I see win now remind me of the earliest days of the storytelling. Like, pre-100 storytelling, when Neo was still coalescing. At this point, it just feels like a regression, and it hurts because I know it's not for lack of talent. The competition can be inclusive to new players and be better than it is now. Neo's user base is older than it ever was - we can go a little longer, a little more complex than we are now, and people will still be able to follow it if they give it more than a cursory glance. The stuff we used to do in what I consider the glory days would have been off-putting to newcomers after as early as the first entry, and I can see why. But the way things are now is a different evil. I can only speak for myself here, but... if you can win solely because you submitted something usable and you're a new face, you have no incentive to actually improve yourself and your writing. And if you can lose solely because you've been at this too long and somebody new submitted something that wasn't gibberish - what's the incentive to actually try? Sure, the prizes and trophies will keep me writing whatever, but why get involved when you're likelier than not to lose for reasons that don't have anything to do with your actual entry? Heartfelt effort used to pay off. Now it doesn't have any edge over a twenty-minute quickie, and since I'm going to get way more hurt when the entry I really cared about loses than I would about the one I didn't really try on, it's easier on myself to just stay on the shallow end of the pool. This competition causes me enough grief as it is; I don't need to invite extra. So, more than ever, I feel like the Storytelling at this point just universally encourages not trying. And I have difficulty comprehending how this could not be a problem. We had a much, much better medium between 'may the best man win' and 'the Storytelling isn't the personal playground of about fifteen users who know the ins and outs too well to let anyone else have a chance' in the pre-Jumpstart and post-My-Favorite-Storyteller-Who-I-Wish-I-Could-Thank-For-Her-Impact-On-My-Life period. I was mad then, but I'd take that over what we have now in the space of a heartbeat and be unutterably grateful for it. It seems like the judge gets the most entries at the beginning of the week (or so said a recent editorial), and around there is when newer entrants get heavily favored. I'm not so elitist that I'm immediately galled to see names I don't recognize up there - contrariwise, because I know I'm sounding like a jerk right now, I love meeting and greeting new blood - but I feel like quality control in the beginning of recent stories has been... lacking. Some of the entries I've seen win, I think to myself that that cannot possibly have been the best entry that was submitted, even disregarding mine ( if I submitted) entirely. :x Best is subjective, sure, but there are ways to pare it down - how is something written, does it maintain characterization, does it tie in details from earlier in the story, does it tie in Neopian lore (This one seems to no longer be a plus), and most importantly, does it move the plot? It's that last bit that galls me the most, because when I submit an entry that directs the plot, and the one that wins just has the characters talk to each other some more without really bringing up any new dynamics? I get upset. I have no shortage of self-loathing for this, but I love the Storytelling too much to ever really quit, even if sometimes it seems like the thing I love doesn't really exist anymore. But... that aside, because I managed to sidetrack myself into a sanctimonious self-flagellating rant. Tl;dr, submitting in the beginning is a crapshoot. Later on is when to make a more focused effort. I'm still trying to figure out what precisely this judge likes. I'm getting a vibe that word count aside, moving the plot too much is a bad thing - and I'm still trying to wrap my head around that, because that's super antithetical to how I've been 'raised' in this competition. Being concise also seems to be a plus. Attention to detail from earlier in the story also seems to be a bonus, which is a relief to me. I pine for the days of long entries with strong characterization and space for characters to think. Because I've really grown as a writer over the years, and I want to show that - and the style I have developed just so happens to be character-focused and bent on long introspective rambles. My favorite things are now discouraged, and have been for quite some time. Which is doubly sad because I learned my love of these things from the Storytelling itself - I was so utterly inspired by the work I saw there that I drew elements from their writers.
|
|
|
Post by Herdy on May 31, 2016 16:13:50 GMT -5
I don't want you to treat this as fact, since it is entirely my speculation, but it seems to me that unless a judge - and to be honest I'm willing to suggest that currently across all competitions it is /the/ judge, the same one - has literally no other option than to search their inbox for an entry, they use the first one they come across. It's no secret that there is no Neopets team any longer. There is only the Jumpstart team, and some employees on that do Neopets things in addition to what they were doing before the layoffs. As a result, they are pressed for time, and take the easiest option. In this case, picking the first entry they see - or in terms of the last week, just don't update the competition at all.
|
|
|
Post by Jae on May 31, 2016 16:23:53 GMT -5
tl;dr (written after I realized how long I went): instead of writing a storytelling entry this week feel free to join in on the LONG RANT/DISCUSSION PARTY XD Diana : You put the theories that I mentioned in passing to words better than I ever could. I agree with pretty much everything you said. And it's normally hard to agree 100% with a post as long as yours that contains as many points. To start, I'm not dissing on any writers in particular - especially because it's the judge that is supposed to pick the best entries but rather it seems like they sometimes pick the first entry they read - especially no one here. But if you asked me two years ago to create a Venn diagram of entries I felt confident about and entries that won, the overlap would be huge. And the entries that lost would be to ones that I could admit were better than mine. Lately, though, it seems like the less effort I put into an entry and the less I care about it, the more likely it is to get published. The entries I feel confident about because they're well-written... well I have a hard time even submitting them and a lot of the time I just ctrl+x and close out of the tab. Maybe I submit later, but like 99.9% of the time I don't. I also agree that the judge seems to favor entries individually rather than how they add to the story and more importantly to future parts. Which is what has led to the current epidemic of no one wanting to write an ending on time because the story waffled so much that the closer has to write a novel just to wrap up all the plot points. Again I'm not faulting anyone, particularly not the people who consciously adapted to the new judge in order to win - ya gotta do what ya gotta do. I'm just saying that I don't agree with the judge's decision to push those changes on us. I guess I'm just butthurt because my idea of adapting was to try writing "longer" (not always longer in word-count) entries with more plot to try and accommodate fewer slots, and I'm sick of those being guaranteed wastes of my time. The requirement to be more concise is something I can deal with - and something I actually agree with since most literary agents are strict about holding new authors to low word counts and most Neopian writers aren't seasoned vets. But I just can't bring myself to write entries that don't really go anywhere because I feel like it's not helping me grow as a writer even if I lose anymore. :S
|
|
|
Post by Diana on May 31, 2016 16:25:24 GMT -5
I sincerely hope that isn't the truth. I'm... inclined to think it's not, because holy crap would that just be horrifying. It just doesn't make sense. I don't think I want to play a Neopets where that was the truth.
I mean, at that point, I could do a better job running the Storytelling. And I'm biased as all get-out. But at least I bring something to the table that isn't apathy.
By the way... I only just learned that Droplet is gone. Which, incidentally, broke my heart again. When did that happen? The initial layoffs...?
2 pm NST and still no story. Looking like another dead week. Maybe the new features will say something.
Jae, I'm really glad that you share at least some of my misgivings. Because I've been holding onto this for years, and I always feel like I'm being a terrible person for getting so bitter and listless and toxic about the state of things. Knowing that I'm not alone here makes me feel less awful. x'D
I'm trying to adapt because constantly losing is gnawing at my self-esteem, but I agree I'm not gaining anything from it other than the occasional prize. I want to show how I've grown, I want to show what I can do - but when that nets you nothing time and time again, you eventually stop caring. Worse, even - not entering earns you nothing, but it doesn't cost your time and it doesn't cost your happiness for the evening when you lose to something that just seems like it was picked out of a hat.
|
|
|
Post by Jae on May 31, 2016 16:31:27 GMT -5
She left last June I believe. Midway through the Altador Cup since she started out in the Staff Tourney. She was on maternity leave when the initial layoffs happened and I think JS didn't want the backlash that would come from terminating someone who had just had a baby. Even if they may have had legal ground to stand on (I think you can terminate someone on maternity leave if you are legitimately removing their position but IANAL), the court of public opinion is often more damaging to companies than the court of law. - - - No worries (: I kind of understand where you're coming from in regards to feeling toxic for complaining about a competition and it looks like you're mad that you aren't winning. For me it's less about winning and more about recognizing that the competition has changed, and in my opinion the changes aren't for the better. And I agree with what you said about wanting to show off how far you've come. That's what used to make the STC fun. And it's part of the reason I feel like I'll always keep entering as long as it's around. :/ I kinda wish we could have something like the STC here but I'm not sure how it would work and I don't wanna put judge-pressure on anyone. Herdy : You know I almost made that point (albeit far more derisively, since my thought was that the judge just picked whatever entry s/he happened to read in the 5 minutes they were on the toilet every day) but like Diana, a small part of me thinks it might be the case but the larger part of me is all feels and doesn't want it to be true.
|
|
|
Post by Diana on May 31, 2016 17:12:47 GMT -5
No worries (: I kind of understand where you're coming from in regards to feeling toxic for complaining about a competition and it looks like you're mad that you aren't winning. For me it's less about winning and more about recognizing that the competition has changed, and in my opinion the changes aren't for the better. And I agree with what you said about wanting to show off how far you've come. That's what used to make the STC fun. And it's part of the reason I feel like I'll always keep entering as long as it's around. :/ I kinda wish we could have something like the STC here but I'm not sure how it would work and I don't wanna put judge-pressure on anyone. I'm mad about not winning when I felt I did a better job than the winner chosen, but that's really only a fragment of the problem - and more than anything, it's symptomatic. I'm upset that I can no longer lose gracefully because I feel the competition has deteriorated - it no longer cares about what it creates, if it cares at all. Quality and meaning are both through the floor. The Storytelling right now just... is, and isn't much more than that. I used to feel like I was part of an amazing community here that I was constantly learning from and constantly so, so proud to be a part of. Being a storyteller was a point of pride, even outside the NTWF - it meant something to me, it said something about me. We built masterpieces that were not only exciting to be a part of but made for great reads even years into the future, as compelling stories rather than just leapfrogging 'yay you won's and communal back-patting. We cared, we collaborated, and we poured our hearts into it. It was a community easel, and the art we made was actually better for the many different minds and styles put upon it, not worse. Now the stories we write meander and fail to get anywhere more often than not, and there's little sense of community even when we're here together because nobody cares about the stories anymore. Because in the current environment, you can't care. Even when I win, I don't get the feeling back that I used to have. Like I said earlier, I'm chasing echos here. I just feel a little closer to the past when I win, or somebody beats me that I think deserved the win. When I read something I genuinely like. Things like that. Think of it as a Band-Aid. Or a drug that I've grown very resitant to but just keep marching on in search of that elusive hit. If I won as infrequently and randomly as I do now in the olden days, I'd be much happier than I am now, because I'd trust the Storyteller's judgment each time I was passed over, I'd usually be downright impressed with what actually won, and I'd feel like I was part of something special. Losing is not really my problem. It's pining for the past. I can't say I'd be happy if things were the way they used to be and I never won again, because it was being in the community I respected so much and writing the stories with them that made it so dear to my heart. But I could win every entry I submit nowadays and still be unhappy, because the spirit is gone and the stories now give little room for us to flex the creativity we once could. My self-loathing regarding this is primarily that I can't bring myself to be happy for all the winners - instead I find myself just scrutinizing their entries and judging them for what they didn't do. It's exacerbated when I've submitted something for that slot because then I know that at least one other thing was submitted for that slot that objectively did more for the story. But even things I wasn't a part of, or didn't try for, I still look at them and feel the same way, because I know the same story repeated over and over again from different perspectives, and I seriously doubt the winners were the only usable submissions. (I don't find the 'I just sat there eating a potato' entry amusing at all, for instance. I think it's a spiteful insult to everyone who submitted to that slot.) I don't like what that makes me. That's why I find this toxic. Until now I've just been internalizing it, and thinking it made me a bad person for feeling like this.
|
|
|
Post by Jae on May 31, 2016 17:37:18 GMT -5
I'm mad about not winning when I felt I did a better job than the winner chosen, but that's really only a fragment of the problem - and more than anything, it's symptomatic. I'm upset that I can no longer lose gracefully because I feel the competition has deteriorated - it no longer cares about what it creates, if it cares at all. Quality and meaning are both through the floor. The Storytelling right now just... is, and isn't much more than that. I used to feel like I was part of an amazing community here that I was constantly learning from and constantly so, so proud to be a part of. Being a storyteller was a point of pride, even outside the NTWF - it meant something to me, it said something about me. We built masterpieces that were not only exciting to be a part of but made for great reads even years into the future, as compelling stories rather than just leapfrogging 'yay you won's and communal back-patting. We cared, we collaborated, and we poured our hearts into it. It was a community easel, and the art we made was actually better for the many different minds and styles put upon it, not worse. Now the stories we write meander and fail to get anywhere more often than not, and there's little sense of community even when we're here together because nobody cares about the stories anymore. Because in the current environment, you can't care. Even when I win, I don't get the feeling back that I used to have. Like I said earlier, I'm chasing echos here. I just feel a little closer to the past when I win, or somebody beats me that I think deserved the win. When I read something I genuinely like. Things like that. Think of it as a Band-Aid. Or a drug that I've grown very resitant to but just keep marching on in search of that elusive hit. My self-loathing regarding this is primarily that I can't bring myself to be happy for all the winners - instead I find myself just scrutinizing their entries and judging them for what they didn't do. It's exacerbated when I've submitted something for that slot because then I know that at least one other thing was submitted for that slot that objectively did more for the story. But even things I wasn't a part of, or didn't try for, I still look at them and feel the same way, because I know the same story repeated over and over again from different perspectives, and I seriously doubt the winners were the only usable submissions. (I don't find the 'I just sat there eating a potato' entry amusing at all, for instance. I think it's a spiteful insult to everyone who submitted to that slot.) I don't like what that makes me. That's why I find this toxic. Until now I've just been internalizing it, and thinking it made me a bad person for feeling like this. Oh I agree, I also miss the days where I felt like I was part of something bigger rather than wanting to win for the sake of winning (and the prize item). also regarding the potato entry. That never actually happened did it. I'm hoping it didn't actually happen >.< I totally understand, and when I look at the whole situation I don't think you are toxic, for the record. I understand going to the page and seeing an entry I don't like and thinking " that's it?" because I've been there too and it's not a good feeling. I hope you're getting some mental relief by finally letting all of this out. *hugs*
|
|
|
Post by Diana on May 31, 2016 17:48:24 GMT -5
I am, trust me. *hugs back* It's so unbelievably cathartic to know I'm not the only person that's felt this. I just felt like I was a horrible person every time it reared its head.
I wasn't around for the potato entry, which is probably a good thing because I would have made a fuss about it had I been there. I don't know how it happened. But it's there. Story 538?
And I mean, it's not like every story we wrote in halcyon days past was this amazing beacon of condensed divinity. Some are more important to some of us than others, and so on - and hey, some stories just outright flopped. It happens. But the ones we really gathered around... 429 was well-written but kind of a narrative mess, in retrospect, but we were all so excited about it. It was a fun narrative mess, with all of us throwing bits and pieces of our past favorite stories in. 432 and 472 - we were all so hyped about the unusual formats, we just went wild building them. 376, 412, 508 - where we just went Full Silly with it and reveled about the things we managed to get up there. 506 was just... crazy. The best kind of crazy. We were so in love with it even the Storyteller came forward to let us know that our entries were all astounding... and for the ending, instead of choosing, just decided to pick all the endings and celebrate with us.
I miss that. I miss the possibility, I miss the opportunity, I miss the stories where that effort really shined through, and I miss us. It's always the Storytelling that pulls me back to Neo, and it's always the Storytelling that pushes me away. :s I've found a nice board to hang out in the NC Mall thread where everyone just throws gifts at each other, and I like that community, which is why I'm still around this time at all. But the STC being down for two weeks with no explanation isn't exactly helping my continued morale.
|
|
|
Post by doctortomoe on May 31, 2016 19:10:25 GMT -5
No story this week? Darn it
|
|
|
Post by Diana on May 31, 2016 19:24:41 GMT -5
Seems so. Editorial spam?
|
|
|
Post by RielCZ on May 31, 2016 19:38:43 GMT -5
I dunno, I kind of doubt Herdy's idea on the sole basis that the easiest option would have been from the outset a complete discontinuation of the STC. The STC downright stopped for months after the mass layoffs; it could have remained stopped. But it didn't. Someone must have cared enough to continue the thing, and if they cared that much, I don't think they'd have had the intention just to pick entries at utter random. At that point, a programmer could have more easily written a script -- and the script would have had an entry up at the same time every day. It appears to be stopped again, however, but with the advent of the AC upon us I can see how the staff might be busy. I'd give it another week before starting to get riled. And on the subject of textwalls... I admit to feeling the same way from time to time; but I was brought up in the competition in the "middle period" Diana talks about, with my first entry being 528 (one after Oliver's if I correctly recall). The contest was just going into a mass overhaul with shorter entries and an emphasis on new writers, and yet I thrived in these conditions and gradually the contest re-evolved into longer, more passionate entries, of which story 607 is a prime example IMO. My entries in the contest and admittedly my ability to recall the exact circumstances of stories declines dramatically around Week 670, whereupon I entered Engineering. But, for the most part, I don't recall being upset with the contest; but it did sting when what limited time I had to enter was put into something I put heart into and the winner was everything Diana complained about, which cycled into further decline in my entry numbers. It is a cycle, but definitely one that sucks us in. We win, we're at the top of our game; we lose, we decline, we lose interest; we come back, we win again (somehow, maybe), and here we are again. Worst comes to worst, maybe see if we can run a four-part long-length collab-friendly STC cycling monthly via the NT. It would certainly mean less entries for CQ to look through heh.
|
|
|
Post by Diana on Jun 3, 2016 19:19:10 GMT -5
Oh, hey, we actually got an answer in the editorial. Fancy that.
I wish they just took the old route of two-week stories instead of cancellations, but at least we weren't forgotten.
|
|
|
Post by Herdy on Jun 6, 2016 7:17:31 GMT -5
They have done the two week competitions for short weeks since the layoffs. I'm biased, of course - but I suspect as with many things in the editorial it was a disingenuous answer, and they actually either forgot/didn't have time. But it'll be back. That's the main thing.
|
|
|
Post by Azusa on Jun 6, 2016 12:23:22 GMT -5
Story's up.
Argh, I would participate but I have an exam in 10 hours' time.
|
|
|
Post by Diana on Jun 6, 2016 17:44:00 GMT -5
Is it bad that the first thing I thought was that Jani had found an Abnormal Fashions Mystery Capsule? Also, I'm curious, to those of you who have had beginnings get in - did you submit them the week before they appeared, or does the current judge hold onto them?
|
|