Religious Apologetics / What Do You Believe?

[Terra]

Apr 19, 2012 7:34:50 GMT -5 @saeryena said:

Apr 18, 2012 22:23:13 GMT -5 @adoqhina said:

Trigger warning: rape.



No. Just ... no. This is not about the child, this is not about how good a person they could turn out to be or how they might save the world. This is about the woman who has to carry that child as a reminder of what is probably the worst experience of her life 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for 9 months, and then has to raise a child for the rest of her life (because you never stop being a parent).

Yes, under almost any other circumstance I would say the rights of the unborn child are to at least be considered strongly. But I'm sorry, there's just no contest here.

SPOILER: Click to show

Imagine your body being brutalized and forcibly invaded in painful, personal and humiliating ways, imagine the feeling of extreme sickness, guilt, hatred, fear, torment ... you won't be able to, but just try. And then you get out of that situation and you spend the next few months or years trying to pick up the shattered pieces of your life, trying to stave of PTSD or anxiety or depression or all three of them.

Then imagine finding out that the worst experience of your life is about to get a million times worse because now you're pregnant, the child of the person who so invaded and destroyed your very being, and you're saying rape victims should just ... what ... get over it? Learn to live with that?

I'm sorry, Sae. I think you are being extremely closed minded, un-accepting and just downright cruel to people who have already experienced enough cruelty. I'll stop now because I'm getting angry and I don't want to. I'll read replies when I've calmed down.

Sarn, I think you misunderstood me.

I thought what was being discussed is whether rape babies deserve to die just for existing.

Or, alternatively, deserve to be hated. I'm just asking if they were born, would they be worthy of love?

Sae, I don't think anyone was saying that. But I agree with Stal. Rape is a really, really sensitive topic. It's a trigger for a lot of people, and it causes a lot of trauma and suffering for those who have experienced it. So, it'd really be better not to press the subject. It's getting a little bit off the topic of this thread, anyway.

[Sae NLI at school]

Yeah, I think this is getting too "innocent vs. innocent". I would like to drop the subject as well.

[Deleted]

Thank you everyone. And my apologies for being so harsh, I wasn't really in the right frame of mind to be replying to a debate thread.

*hugs all around*

I'm going to back out for a couple of days though. Bit of a breather.

[Deleted]

It's okay Sarn, I can totally see where you're coming from.

Really, for me this just seemed to be a question of "does the baby deserve to be punished" rather than "should a mother be forced to go through pain". I say no to both of these questions, but that makes a big paradox of a situation where the mother in question isn't myself. That's why I stay out of it.

[Yoyti]

Well, I disappeared for a while to avoid rubbing anyone the wrong way, but I'm popping back in to say:

Hello! I disappeared for a while to be redundant. That aside, I have a perhaps less controversial subject which is along the same lines as abortion. Zombies. There are some passages in the bible that indicate a possible zombie apocalypse. Do you think it's ethical to kill those undead? Do they have souls to?

In the case of fiction, I stand by the mantra of "Zombies Were People Too!" but, in real life, I'd probably not hesitate to kill an attacking zombie. What say you?

[Gav]

Maybe we should have a 'General Ethics' thread, since most of the recent discussion would fall in there. XD

Now, I'm going to assume you're talking of intelligent, thinking, talking zombies? That have a craving for flesh and can spread it to others? Because for most other kinds you either wouldn't see much sense in keeping them alive (they just want your braaaains, man) or you'd see less harm in keeping them around if they're not dangerous (apart from the smell, I suppose).

In either case, I'd be of the 'The dead should remain dead, no matter how unfairly people may think they were led there' side.

[Deleted]

Apr 20, 2012 18:15:33 GMT -5 Yoyti said:

Well, I disappeared for a while to avoid rubbing anyone the wrong way, but I'm popping back in to say:

Hello! I disappeared for a while to be redundant. That aside, I have a perhaps less controversial subject which is along the same lines as abortion. Zombies. There are some passages in the bible that indicate a possible zombie apocalypse. Do you think it's ethical to kill those undead? Do they have souls to?

In the case of fiction, I stand by the mantra of "Zombies Were People Too!" but, in real life, I'd probably not hesitate to kill an attacking zombie. What say you?

According to mythology, zombies are just reanimated corpses that eat people to keep themselves alive, so no, I think their souls have gone on.

[Komori]

.... Wait, what?

What passage in the Bible indicates a zombie apocalypse? o____e You know when people are raised from the dead (Jesus, Lazarus, etc), that doesn't mean they're brought back as zombies.

[Deleted]

Apr 20, 2012 21:07:56 GMT -5 Komori said:

.... Wait, what?

What passage in the Bible indicates a zombie apocalypse? o____e You know when people are raised from the dead (Jesus, Lazarus, etc), that doesn't mean they're brought back as zombies.

I think Yoyti got that from the whole Harold Camping Judgement Day deal from last year (seems like yesterday...gosh) and if I remember right one of those articles talked about how on Judgement Day there are supposed to be a bunch of corpses rising from their graves...

I could be completely wrong seeing as my source is a bunch of articles on a false prophecy rather than the actual Bible. =/

[Yoyti]

I just meant that there are certain passages which could be translated as "zombie apocalypse," which isn't saying much, seeing as how many passages have alternate interpretations. It was just a way to segway into the zombie discussion.

Also, it fits into the Jewish afterlife, which I always found amusing to describe as: "we sit in the ground and wait for the messiah to come, then we all become zombies" (zombie in this scenario simply meaning reanimated corpse.)

[Gav]

Could you be a bit more specific as to which passages? xD That's a pretty unpopular interpreation to being with, after all.

[Breakingchains]

Zombies? Wow, I got me one heck of a boring translation, you guys. =[

I'm just ribbing, sorry. xDD; I was able to find one reference to corpses rising from graves, Matthew's account of what happened shortly after Jesus' death (Matthew 27:52, describing a mass resurrection of saints just... wakin' up, crawling out, and heading into Jerusalem. Nothing else is ever said about them, AFAIK, so it's kind of a big-lipped alligator moment.) Probably safe to say they're not traditional zombies, at any rate, but what the heck. xD

My response to the question is a decisive "Boom, headshot!" But then, given absolutely no other options in a self-defense situation, I don't find it immoral to kill a normal human being, either. (Tragic and upsetting, but not immoral on the part of the person defending.) So that's an easy one for me.

Add in the fact that, unlike live humans, zombies will pretty much never do anything except go on to kill more victims. To me, whether they have souls or not becomes moot--there's no way to know, but from a practical standpoint, you're just doing everybody a favor.

[Yoyti]

Here: Revelations 11:8-11

11:8 Their dead bodies will be in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
11:9 From among the peoples, tribes, languages, and nations people will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not allow their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.
11:10 Those who dwell on the earth rejoice over them, and they will be glad. They will give gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
11:11 After the three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. Great fear fell on those who saw them.

That's fairly zombie-filled.

[Jo]

Apr 21, 2012 10:07:06 GMT -5 Breakingchains said:

Zombies? Wow, I got me one heck of a boring translation, you guys. =[

I think somebody needs to write this version of the Bible.

Jesus and Miracles AND ZOMBIES.

Extracts are as such:

So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because the town of Nazareth had been plagued by such great a zombie invasion, that none could remain there. He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger and a ring of salt, and guarded him with a shotgun, because she feared of undead creatures reaching him as he slept.
And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night, to protect from any attacks by zombies. An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified, for they feared that he was a creature risen from the dead. But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord, and he shall rid the world of the zombies who reside in it. This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and a ring of salt and lying in a manger.”

...I had way too much fun writing that >.> um. back to the serious debating.

[Komori]

Apr 21, 2012 10:09:25 GMT -5 Yoyti said:

Here: Revelations 11:8-11

11:8 Their dead bodies will be in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
11:9 From among the peoples, tribes, languages, and nations people will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not allow their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.
11:10 Those who dwell on the earth rejoice over them, and they will be glad. They will give gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
11:11 After the three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. Great fear fell on those who saw them.

That's fairly zombie-filled.

Hahaha, only if you don't read the whole thing:


Revelation 11:7-12 (NIV)

7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

So this is a story of God bringing these people back from the dead and then bringing them up to Heaven. The people on earth can't actually DO anything to them, because they're not there. Also, it's only two prophets; not exactly a zombie apocalypse. XD