What is a hero?

[wolfofthewoods]

Seduphe/Bacon: said:

No I still think that's an "idol". There are two types of idols: "false god" idols, and "hero" idols. this would be the "hero" idols.

Well, idols and heroes can be intertwined -- but it depends. Not all heroes are idols, and not all idols are heroes. I don't believe that a hero has to endanger him/herself. I think heroes are selfless; that doesn't mean that they have to put themselves in danger/risk their own lives.

[Kitties]

I think a hero is a person who does something kind for someone else, even if it's not called for and doesn't really help the hero in any way. Case in point: I read some story somewhere about this kid who wanted the lead, Scrooge, in his school play, "A Christmas Carol". Well, he gets cast as Tiny Tim, and his enemy gets Scrooge. On opening night, the lead gets stage fright, however, and finds himself unable to go on. He invites the kid who plays Tiny Tim to take his part, since Tiny Tim only has a few lines, and let his enemy play Scrooge. But instead of jumping at the chance to finally get what he really wanted, he convinces the Scrooge kid to go on and conquer his fear. There are larger acts of heroism which have already been mentioned, but I think that the truest sort aren't the type who call attention to the fact that they helped a person/s.

[Stal]

It's an interesting ponderment...

see, some people have actually told me that they consider me to be a role model and they look up to me and stuff (one young kid actually told me I was his hero). I cringe when I hear that because I'm not someone to be a role model at all. Far from it.

And yet the traits that represent true heroism, to me, are things that I actually attempt to do myself. Kind of a weird paradox.

And that has nothing to do with anyone. To me a hero is altruistic. Others come first. Selfless acts that show true Agape-style love to their fellow man. That with them all people ARE equal, no matter if they happen to like them or not.

That, as someone just mentioned, they'll do things that have no benefit to them...

And then there's heros that do extraordinary things. For example the guy who had to saw his own arm off about a year ago. Or someone like Job who endured all he did. King David, a man after God's own heart as was said...

So it depends on what sort of Hero you mean.

[Princess Ember Mononoke]

Ya know, my Mythology unit has been making me think about this a lot.

I still stick with my previous definition about personal sacrifice, but here's just some food for thought.

Let's take a look at the type of people the Greeks considered heroes.

Herculese. Nice guy. Cared a lot about his family and always absolved himself for his wrongdoings, regaurdless of whether or not anyone asked him to. Of course he was GREAT - he went to hell and back for a friend, killed giants, boars, and lions, bargained with titans, stole from gods, tamed the Cerebrus, and generally ran the gammut of heroic deeds. But when he got angry, random people DIED. People of little consequence, of course - servants, mentors - people whose deaths, in those days, would not be considered tragic. But the fact is, the guy was guilty of several counts of second-degree murder!

Achilles: The classic war hero! Aw MAN, this guy was great! He had it MADE, and yet he went into war knowing full well that he would die. But not because he believed in the cause. Nope. He just wanted a place in the Elysian fields and the chronicals of history. That's about as far away from selfless as you can get. And then there's all the raping and pilaging he did. For crying out loud, he kept a slave girl, not that that was unusual for that time.

Bellerophon. Cool guy. He had a winged horse. Woo! He battled all sorts of armies and one really big bad monster, but he did it knowing that, as long as he had Pegasus, nothing could hurt him. That's hardly what I'd call brave, let alone a sacrifice.

Perseus: My favorite story! He was truely brave as opposed to just fearless like Herculese and Bellerephon. But he still did it for the glory. Except when he rescued Andromeda, which was pretty great, but again, not really much of a sacrifice involved there.

Odysseus. A good deal more intelligent than Herculese, I'll give him that. His skill was with his brains. He was the schemer, the quick-thinker. His greatest weapon was his wit, and with it he conquered men and monsters alike. And unlike Perseus, Achilles Bellerophon, he didn't want glory. All he wanted was to get home to his family. Aaaw. But then, there was the whole raping and pillaging bit. And the fact that he brutally slaughtered the unarmed men who had taken advantage of his absence. And there was also the whole Scylla nd Carybdis bit, but I'm not going to get into that because it's really quite complicated.

Theseus. Now HERE is someone who would appeal to more modern audiences. Great thinker - a revolutionary. He founded democracy and devoted his life to improving the means of government. He was the first person to recognize the insanity defense! I think he might have organized a court system where offenders could be tried by their peers, but I don't really remember, so don't quote me on that. Not only that, but he was known for being an exceptionally good winner - no raping and pillaging conquered cities, nope. He believed in peace treaties. And what he went through to kill the minotaur was probably one of the bravest things any hero had ever done. He had NO gauruntee of victory and would undoubtably die if he messed up, and yet he went purely of his own will, his goal to stop the carnage.

Atalanta. Hooray for femninists! She broke all the barriers and became the first great woman hero! Unfortunately, she also mercilessly killed suitors who didn't pass her test. Men can be annoying, but that's going a bit overboard, don't you think?

Now, out of all those people, the only one I would REALLY call a hero is Theseus. But then there's another mythological figure I want to consider, one so obscure even <i>I</i> don't remember her name. She was a daughter of Oedipus, and she got caught in the middle of a war between her two brothers. Both of them died, but the second-in-command of the winning army declared that the brother who opposed be left to rot and be eaten by wild animals. This seems degrading and unnecessary to us, but in those days it was believed that if a man was not given a proper burial his spirit would forever wander aimlessly, never allowed into the afterlife. Now, this same ruthless dictator also declared that whoever tried to bury him would be put to death. And this girl, this daughter of Oedipu, willingly GAVE HER LIFE to save her brothers soul. She performed the rites and buried him in the dead of night, and in the morning went bravely forward to meet her fate. This is the very ESSENCE of what most of us would consider heroism, and yet she was NEVER hailed as a hero by the Greeks. She was admired, yes, but also pitied. Maybe it was because she never held a sword or killed a soldier, but her story fell into obscurity and today is known by only the biggest mythoogy buffs.

Just something to think about.

[Stal]

Ember, as you pointed out many times, a lot of those things were actually acceptable for the day and age. Lincoln's considered a hero for freeing blacks, but you know he was far from altruistic and all for black rights and stuff.

So it's not exactly fair to compare their "heroic deeds" using today's mindsets and standards. They were heros of the time for a reason and did very many culturally acceptable things.

Oh, and I don't blame Achilles for wanting a legacy. That bugs me as well, which is one of the reasons I loved Troy so much. Achilles wanted to be remembered. A form of immortality. As selfish as it is for me to say...I don't want to be forgotten when I die. I _want_ to be remembered...

EDIT -- Oh, and a random note, I believe Achilles actually existed. I believe the Trojan war was real (something which can't be proved one way or another)...just without a lot of the whole things involved...like the gods and goddesses involved, Achilles truly being invincible, etc.

[Princess Ember Mononoke]

Stalos said:

Ember, as you pointed out many times, a lot of those things were actually acceptable for the day and age. Lincoln's considered a hero for freeing blacks, but you know he was far from altruistic and all for black rights and stuff.

So it's not exactly fair to compare their "heroic deeds" using today's mindsets and standards. They were heros of the time for a reason and did very many culturally acceptable things.

Oh, and I don't blame Achilles for wanting a legacy. That bugs me as well, which is one of the reasons I loved Troy so much. Achilles wanted to be remembered. A form of immortality. As selfish as it is for me to say...I don't want to be forgotten when I die. I _want_ to be remembered...

EDIT -- Oh, and a random note, I believe Achilles actually existed. I believe the Trojan war was real (something which can't be proved one way or another)...just without a lot of the whole things involved...like the gods and goddesses involved, Achilles truly being invincible, etc.

Hm... I guess my point came across completely wrong... part if what I was trying to say was how everything changes over timeand some things defy definition. *reads over the post* Wow, I REALLY messed up, didn't I?

[Stal]

Princess said:

Hm... I guess my point came across completely wrong... part if what I was trying to say was how everything changes over timeand some things defy definition. *reads over the post* Wow, I REALLY messed up, didn't I?

Well it made it sound like you were saying some heros aren't exactly heros at all.... n.n;

[irishdragonlord]

Stal, I must disagree.

I say a hero must fight for a just cause - otherwise he'd be a villain

What you said - I think - is that one cannot judge a hero not a hero using today's mindset. Personally, I find rape, pillaging, and murder, a tad condemning and stripping of the hero title. Also, regardless of whether is was "culturally" right or not, the fact is, is it right in fact? Culturally right standards allowed slavery, but it's not right. Spartans left weak babies to die - and that was culturally right, but in fact, wrong. Taking of innocent = bad, no matter how you cut or view it.

And as for my definition of hero... personal sacrifice. Period. I do believe people, i.e. Saladin / Richard the Lionheart cannot be condemned villains for what they did - assuming none of what they did was wrong (I am a very strong believer in morality, and I believe there are some morals set in stone, i.e. Life, Equality, etc. ). If they gave personal sacrifice and did not do wrong (course no one's perfect, but that's no excuse for cold-blooded murder), then they can be considered a hero.

[Stal]

IDL, while I'm on you as far as the morality goes, think about it. These people were created, fictitious figures, by people who believed everything they did was right and okay. They'd probably never even heard of the fact that they were not doing things okay.

So are you saying that simply because we have a better understanding of morality and such than ancient many ancient cultures, that all of a sudden someone who acted rightly, yet still did things they believed to be right (and were wrong on) suddenly makes them much less a hero?

Samson. Considered to be a hero of the Old Testament. Brought down the Philistines. Not exactly the most moral person on the planet.

David. A man after God's own heart. He had his problems as well. Is he any less a hero for doing things he did?

[irishdragonlord]

Stalos said:

IDL, while I'm on you as far as the morality goes, think about it. These people were created, fictitious figures, by people who believed everything they did was right and okay. They'd probably never even heard of the fact that they were not doing things okay.

So are you saying that simply because we have a better understanding of morality and such than ancient many ancient cultures, that all of a sudden someone who acted rightly, yet still did things they believed to be right (and were wrong on) suddenly makes them much less a hero?

Samson. Considered to be a hero of the Old Testament. Brought down the Philistines. Not exactly the most moral person on the planet.

David. A man after God's own heart. He had his problems as well. Is he any less a hero for doing things he did?

Good point. But-

Did not David repent? If I remember correctly, he wept and refused to eat and tore his clothes every single day from when the baby Bathsheba gave birth to - his baby - until it died. He murdered her husband for crying out loud after sleeping with her! And then he married her! That was awful. But, he repented. He recognized his mistake and wept and famished. I believe that is redeeming. Hercules murdered innocent lives that were disregarded and did not care. Some of his actions were heroic; but he was not a hero. Humans are given a sense of morality - aka your conscience. Cold-blooded murder without a thought, I would say, is something that deprives heroism. I can see your point though, and I'm going to give this some more thought.

(And I'm not as brushed up on Samson I forgot what he did after... Delilah... ^-^;;