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Post by Buddy on Oct 30, 2004 16:13:40 GMT -5
I have often wondered - why the devil, if you are faithful and loyal, don't you get married? What is the point? Like you said, just a few hours to get a piece of paper and be legally married if you think you can't afford a wedding. In all honesty, the entire thing makes no sense to me. Because, IDL, some people do not have a fantisized view of marriage. Anymore, most people have come to see marriage less of an "We must stay together, or will be forever shunned in the eyes of God and the world!" type thing and more of a "Well, since we're together ANYWAYS...". In fact, according to statistics I've heard (and Oily would probably know better on this than I would), a good majority of the people in Europe don't bother to get married - they live together, have one, two, three children, own a home together, but they just don't bother to get married. They've come to see marriage in a far different light than it used to be seen in - as less of a "Final Step", and more as a pointless act that does nothing more than tell them what they already know - that they've found someone they intend to spend the rest of their life with. |
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Post by Tracy on Oct 30, 2004 16:45:42 GMT -5
Because, IDL, some people do not have a fantisized view of marriage. Anymore, most people have come to see marriage less of an "We must stay together, or will be forever shunned in the eyes of God and the world!" type thing and more of a "Well, since we're together ANYWAYS...". In fact, according to statistics I've heard (and Oily would probably know better on this than I would), a good majority of the people in Europe don't bother to get married - they live together, have one, two, three children, own a home together, but they just don't bother to get married. They've come to see marriage in a far different light than it used to be seen in - as less of a "Final Step", and more as a pointless act that does nothing more than tell them what they already know - that they've found someone they intend to spend the rest of their life with. Mmm, true. Cohabitation  It's becoming increasingly popular, whereas marriage is becoming thought of as "old fashioned". However, I can see religious people not liking this, as it's still considered adultery... (Tracy is terrible at this kind of thing...) |
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Post by Torey on Oct 30, 2004 17:27:46 GMT -5
I'm quite sheltered so I don't really know a lot about what people think of premarital sex and all the ins and outs of it and whatnot. However, I guess I have feelings about it and to be honest, I don't mind about having sex before marriage. As long as there is love involved and people don't just have sex as one night stands or because they're drunk, then I think it's okay. I think that you should marry before having children though. I don't really know why really, but I guess it's because I value family and to have a married couple with children seems ideal.
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Post by mushroom on Oct 30, 2004 19:39:58 GMT -5
Sex is a human impulse and a naural urge and I don't think it should be shut out just because of age. If parents give teens permission, and teens are mature enough to talk it through, I really don't see a problem. The same people who want teens not to have sex want to take sex ed out of schools, so really, we can't win. There's a little thing called the age of consent that you really need to take into consideration. In some places, it's completely illegal for minors to have sex (outside of a marriage), and in others, the AOC is more like fourteen or sixteen (maybe somewhat younger outside the US). (Even if BOTH teens are under the AOC, it's still illegal. Also, parental permission can't cancel this law.) Any person can start a case about AOC violations, not just the parents or "victim," so it really isn't a good idea to ignore these laws entirely. But I live in a state with a low-ish AOC, so I guess for other people the pros and cons may be different. I'm not against premarital sex. I don't especially value my virginity. The etymology of "virgin" is from a word meaning "man" and a word meaning "woman;" the idea was originally that a virgin was complete unto him- or herself, not beholden to any other person, like the goddess Diana. For me, whether or not I've had sex has no bearing on whether or not I'm an independant individual. Also, I'm not sure why the number of people with whom one has had sex could possibly change its "value." It won't mean anything less for me to kiss my permanent partner just because I'll have kissed others before him or her. Why would sex be different? Oh, and the sites " scarleteen.com" and " www.goaskalice.columbia.edu" are good places for information on STDs, pregnancy, and so on. Neither is against premarital sex. |
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Post by irishdragonlord on Oct 30, 2004 20:31:24 GMT -5
Because, IDL, some people do not have a fantisized view of marriage. Anymore, most people have come to see marriage less of an "We must stay together, or will be forever shunned in the eyes of God and the world!" type thing and more of a "Well, since we're together ANYWAYS...". In fact, according to statistics I've heard (and Oily would probably know better on this than I would), a good majority of the people in Europe don't bother to get married - they live together, have one, two, three children, own a home together, but they just don't bother to get married. They've come to see marriage in a far different light than it used to be seen in - as less of a "Final Step", and more as a pointless act that does nothing more than tell them what they already know - that they've found someone they intend to spend the rest of their life with. Mmm. Interesting. But I still don't see the logic. I thought that, in the US at least, you got tax breaks when you got married.  And the reason for not getting them is...? Bah. Time to think harder. |
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Post by Linnen Malfoy on Oct 30, 2004 21:15:12 GMT -5
I have often wondered - why the devil, if you are faithful and loyal, don't you get married? What is the point? Like you said, just a few hours to get a piece of paper and be legally married if you think you can't afford a wedding. In all honesty, the entire thing makes no sense to me. Some people simply don't belive in marriage. I have an aunt who has lived with a man for fifteen years and they are not married, however, in all sense of the word, they are 'husband and wife'. Why arn't they married? She has been divorced as he has and so they know what may happen if the worst occurs, and so they simply don't get married. But that does not mean that they are not faithful. Moreso, they are more inlove than some people who acutaly ARE married. But some reasons for not being married is simply the pressure which it puts on people. I suppose the idea that you are bound together is frightening - I would think so too. I can't speak for people, but that does seem to be the idea. The pill is around 99.9% accurate. As for me, I personal think that if you are mature enough to have sex, then you should be able to at any (resonable) age. If one can understand the reprocussions, the idea, everything about it and what can happen and they are indeed serious, then that is their call and theirs alone. |
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Post by TK on Oct 30, 2004 21:20:54 GMT -5
You are telling me because some fool went and got stoned, responsibility is not needed for marriage - a working marriage, not some jacked-up mockery? In that case, responsibility is needed for absolutely nothing - they can get stoned and carry it out. Oh, well, now this is just plain semantics. Marriage is a marriage, whether or not you claim it's a mockery or not. I can build a house, and even if it's monstrously ugly, unplanned and dangerously unsafe, it's still a house. Running to some Vegas alter whilst you're as drunk as a matador to get married is still getting married, proving that not a whit of responsibility is needed. If you want to define "thoughtful marriage" and "thoughtless marriage" as two separate things, though, please specify in the future. You won't die, but that doesn't make it good. Chocolate makes you fat, then diabetic, then you die. Sex does none of the three, but does have the whole emotional ride. Which only reinforces my point that sex is indeed okay as long as, with the contraception, the right emotional thought is necessary. But just how often are they? If most people did that, there would be less aborion, less premarital sex, and less teenage pregnancies. Entirely correct. These should be thought out more often, and entirely not enough people do so. Quite a shame, but it is their decision to make, and they should therefore be held accountable to their actions. Which is why I would never engage in such without actual thinking at least one foreseeing thought. You pointed out how those few hours or days didn't prove responsibility; I'm saying that time in operation or ordering some condoms is that same. Could you reiterate? I'm looking over my two previous posts, and I never once said anything like "those few hours or days didn't didn't prove responsibility". Responsibility can be shown in the most time-bereft action. |
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Post by TheEaterofWorlds on Oct 31, 2004 0:40:52 GMT -5
I have often wondered - why the devil, if you are faithful and loyal, don't you get married? What is the point? Like you said, just a few hours to get a piece of paper and be legally married if you think you can't afford a wedding. In all honesty, the entire thing makes no sense to me. There are many, many, many reasons for people who love each other not to get married. I will list a few. First, is religious. If you're not religiously inclined to marriage, what other reason would you have? In that case, marriage IS just a scrap of paper, and not some deeper and more meaningful thing. Two, the complications with property ownership, especially in cases of divorce. Yes, there is such thing as a prenuptual agreement, but that's easier said than done. Many couples see it as a lack of trust and don't do one, and are left without when the marriage goes south. My final reason is the most solid one I've heard; My grandfather was married to the love of his life, and she died at a young age. Over the next few decades, his neighbor and good friend died, and he started a relationship with his friend's widow. (None of this was sudden, it happened over many years and I am trying to be breif) They have been together for over ten years, and they will never get married. Why is this? Because in her husband's will, he put in a clause that stated that if she gets remarried, she will loose all inheritance. She has medical bills, living expenses, and she is retired. My grandfather has also had high medical bills following a serious accident. They need that money. So, they've been living together and they love each other, and they're not going to get married. If you want to wait until marriage, it's your choice. However, I don't ever want judgement cast on people who decide not to. It is their choice, and if they feel they are responsible enough, they can go on ahead. Maybe they aren't as responsible or ready as they thought they were, but that happens with marriages too. As for what parents think... yes, some parents will not approve, but some will. Some parents also do not approve of inter-racial relationships. Parents are not always right. Also this whole 'real marriage' thing you are talking about. You either are married or you're not. If someone's marriage doesn't live up to your standards of what is right or just or pure it's still a marriage and should not be excluded from this conversation. Not all quickie marriages end badly, not all well thought out marriages last. As for 'You shouldn't get married if you don't know where the relationship is going'... I know people who have been together for over seven years and STILL don't know where it's going. Also, to Crystal I will point out that it is possible to marry someone with a sexually transmitted disease. If you are married or unmarried, you still need to screen your potential partners. It is possible for your lover to be carrying something, this is true. With AIDS and HIV and herpes and everything else, anyone you're going to sleep with inside of marriage or out of it should submit to a blood test and you should also if asked. It's a matter of trust and of ensuring the safety of your partner. It's up to you, and only up to you to decide what is right for yourself. It's not up to me to decide for you and it's not up to you or anyone else to decide for me. What is 'right' is different for everyone. |
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Post by Crystal on Oct 31, 2004 1:29:51 GMT -5
Also, to Crystal I will point out that it is possible to marry someone with a sexually transmitted disease. If you are married or unmarried, you still need to screen your potential partners. It is possible for your lover to be carrying something, this is true. With AIDS and HIV and herpes and everything else, anyone you're going to sleep with inside of marriage or out of it should submit to a blood test and you should also if asked. It's a matter of trust and of ensuring the safety of your partner. I know... I'm not sure, but I think it's part of whatever it is you go through before you get married to do that. I know my brother and his wife had to, aside from pre-marriage counselling and all that whatnot. Whatever. About marriage - I want a done deal, I don't want one where he's not legally my husband, where essentially we're not really more than a boyfriend and girlfriend who have lived together for how many years. I want a marriage where in all sense of the word, he's mine and I'm his, and we can't split up in a moment's notice. If I choose the wrong guy and we have to get a divorce, no matter how messy that divorce is going to be, then so be it. All the more reason for me to choose carefully. I want to dress up for once and look beautiful and walk down the aisle radiant, telling everyone that I'm his forever. I don't want a simple cohabitation thing - perhaps it's a reflection of the society I live in (which to most people would be extremely conservative, but I don't like labeling it as such), but I want it to be forever with witnesses to the vows. Formally, not just informally moving in, till death do us part legally and not. That's all. |
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Post by irishdragonlord on Oct 31, 2004 7:40:24 GMT -5
There are many, many, many reasons for people who love each other not to get married. I will list a few. First, is religious. If you're not religiously inclined to marriage, what other reason would you have? In that case, marriage IS just a scrap of paper, and not some deeper and more meaningful thing. Two, the complications with property ownership, especially in cases of divorce. Yes, there is such thing as a prenuptual agreement, but that's easier said than done. Many couples see it as a lack of trust and don't do one, and are left without when the marriage goes south. My final reason is the most solid one I've heard; My grandfather was married to the love of his life, and she died at a young age. Over the next few decades, his neighbor and good friend died, and he started a relationship with his friend's widow. (None of this was sudden, it happened over many years and I am trying to be breif) They have been together for over ten years, and they will never get married. Why is this? Because in her husband's will, he put in a clause that stated that if she gets remarried, she will loose all inheritance. She has medical bills, living expenses, and she is retired. My grandfather has also had high medical bills following a serious accident. They need that money. So, they've been living together and they love each other, and they're not going to get married. Mmm. I understand about the grandfather idea; that makes sense to me. However, again - there are benefits to marriage and what you are saying that is bad deals with cases of divorce, and divorce only (excepting the grandfather). Which I understand, but I don't know the divorce percentage, so I can't really comment. My biggest point is most people either don't think through to whole premarital sex thing or just assume they're ready and they aren't. Basically, there are just too many cases. No, they are not, but sometimes they are, and when a 16-year-old or even 19-year-old gets pregnant, I believe parents are right to say they were wrong. How do I put this... By real marriage I am saying the person knew what they were doing. They weren't semi-conscious, intoxicated, or marrying someone they've never met before because of that. I'm personally for making a law that to be married you can't be intoxicated, stoned, etc. As for the people you knew - well, are they happy? Do they know if they love each other? Maybe they should have waited. Maybe they shouldn't have. I don't know because in every case something is different. Now that last bit makes no sense to me - "what is 'right' is different for everyone." Can you give me an example? |
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Post by irishdragonlord on Oct 31, 2004 7:48:57 GMT -5
Mmm. Interesting. But I still don't see the logic. I thought that, in the US at least, you got tax breaks when you got married. And the reason for not getting them is...? Bah. Time to think harder. Thought harder. ;D Ok - basically I find co-habitation and stuff like that a 'stumbling block.' For those unfamiliar with the Bible, Paul talks about one - meat. Way back when, the sacrificial animal was sometimes cut up and sold after the sacrifice. Now, it was not wrong to eat the meat, but some people may get the wrong message - i.e. they needed to sacrifice animals, or that it was ok to worship at that place, etc. etc. And for people struggling with faith, that could very much happen. Paul said he would never eat meat for the rest of his life if he found out he had done that to someone. Co-habitation and stuff like that seems that way to me; what about 17 and 18 year old who think "Well, they're not married, and they have kids and all that; why can't we have sex and not get married?" Because you don't have a job and aren't ready  See what I mean? For some people it may work out, but for others, it simply wont. |
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Post by Buddy on Oct 31, 2004 10:02:31 GMT -5
Mmm. I understand about the grandfather idea; that makes sense to me. However, again - there are benefits to marriage and what you are saying that is bad deals with cases of divorce, and divorce only (excepting the grandfather). Which I understand, but I don't know the divorce percentage, so I can't really comment. I know of a person who's parents aren't married because the tax benifits are better for them without marriage. I can't explain it, but it's true. And IDL, I find it amazing you've never heard the divorce rate. It's 50% percent, my friend. Yes, that's right -- 50% percent. Half of the people in this country who get married will end up breaking their "Sacred Vows" and get divorced. And while I'm not sure of the exact re-marriage rate, I do know that there's only been one time in history when it was higher - in the 1600's. How do you define "think through"? I say, if they have all the information - of the possible good and bad out comes of their actions, of the possible contracetives (some of which, as Linny has stated, can have as high as 99.9% percent rate of succes) - and then have made their decision, well, how much more can you possibly ask for? How much more think are they supposed to do? No, perhaps you shouldn't take the situation so lightly - but there is a difference between having sex with someone you've been with for a year and having sex with someone on the first date. IDL, that concept is very simple. You see gay marriage as "wrong" - I see it as "right". You see abortion as "wrong" - some see it as "right". You see Bush and his policies as "right" - I see him as "wrong". IDL, in many cases, what is "right" and what is "wrong" is merely based on perspective. Both sides see themselves as right, therefor, bluring the inane, black-and-white concept of "right and wrong". In this world, things are never that simple. Never. |
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Post by irishdragonlord on Oct 31, 2004 10:37:04 GMT -5
I know of a person who's parents aren't married because the tax benifits are better for them without marriage. I can't explain it, but it's true. And IDL, I find it amazing you've never heard the divorce rate. It's 50% percent, my friend. Yes, that's right -- 50% percent. Half of the people in this country who get married will end up breaking their "Sacred Vows" and get divorced. And while I'm not sure of the exact re-marriage rate, I do know that there's only been one time in history when it was higher - in the 1600's. Yes, I've heard 50% before, but I wasn't 100% sure if that was dead accurate. Considering celebrities and whatnot, however, it doesn't surprise me. That's the whole think through! Very few people manage to do that. It's startling, and I know it's true because, like I said, because of the teenage pregnancy, premarital sex, and abortion rates. Yes, there is, but I still say the line needs to be drawn. Ok. My confusion was whether the right for everyone was meant opinion wise, or by saying something along the lines of their is no right or wrong or something. That sentence is confusing too, but I think I get it.  |
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Post by Shadyy on Oct 31, 2004 10:57:58 GMT -5
Too lazy to read all posts, my head hurts.
I for one don't intend to get married. I don't believe in god, actually very little young people I know really, actually belive in god. Over here marriage is just a piece of paper, something that binds you and that brings tons of hassle when people realize they got married to fast. My parents got married pretty early. Why? because my grandmother was like a hawk, protecting her daughter's virtue and virginity. They thought they were in love, got married and had me. twenty years later they split up...having lots of mental scares and trauma's. Makinfg my life very difficult, right now.
Sex shouldn't be about reproduction, but it should be about love (Should, I said). I think people are entilted to judge for themselves. But I do think that it shouldn't be done untill a certain age. How on earth can you really get and really want to have sex when you're 12 or so? I'd say 17 is a minimum. I just don't think kids/people that age should have sex. How many of them regret it afterwards...
You know there are 'responsible, married people' who don't want children, but they could also accidentaly get pregnant. So the marriage thing isn't really waterproof
So erm...yeah...I'm for it. I don't intend to get married. Do you think I'll live in sin? So be it...but everyone should be able to decide.
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Post by irishdragonlord on Oct 31, 2004 12:06:34 GMT -5
*sighs*
Ok. I like all the whole points about how people should be allowed to decide, and people can be responsible, but point in fact is... people are morons.
I know a kid who is 14 and desperately wants sex. There's a girl in my friend's class who HAS had sex and still does. FOURTEEN.
In one of the public schools, for kids 12-17, sex is what they do a lot. A lot. Twelve year olds having sex. 14 year olds and 16 year olds and 19 year olds. All of them.
Now, point in fact is, I'm not God. I don't know how He will decide on TEoW's grandfather, because, said grandfather is not the norm. That is not most cases. That is a rare anomaly.
Now, as for being allowed to decide - is it really worth it? Are there enough responsilbe people to constitute that it should be ok? Are there few enough teenage pregnancies to say people should have a choice (and let me tell you they don't give a crap if you say they need to be 18 - they'll say it's their 'choice')?
No there is not. And marriage pointless? Then dating is pointless. Proving your responsibility and loyalty - pointless. Because that's all that marriage is. If you can't afford a wedding and just vow to each other - then I believe God isn't going to judge you. But if you never actuall say you will be loyal, never promise - well, than you can't actually know.
And yes, the divorce rate is high. That is due in part to imbecilic celebrities being... celebrities... and people thinking what you're saying: marriage is pointless or that they needn't have married, etc. etc.
And if you are married, than you should have the means and support of raising a child. Having sex at 18 nullifies that - you don't have that support. At least the married couples are able to care for the kid.
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It's becoming increasingly popular, whereas marriage is becoming thought of as "old fashioned".
<---- Misty the fennec fox, thanks Sarn 
And the reason for not getting them is...?
