Gender Gap

[Kiddo]

I'm about as anti-feminist as you can get. I think the whole NOW movement has way outlasted its usefulness and that equality of the sexes has been pretty much accomplished.

However, I've been told repeatedly that there is a difference in how females are treated, especially in the computer science field. I've been warned by female alumni from this department to watch out for the older professors and my required diversity class spent a week or so on gender bias and such.

For the past year I've been noticing that I get treated a bit different by some people in the computer science field. It's nothing major, usually just a "wow, we don't get may female computer science students." I don't feel like I'm doing anything special but apparently to some people I am.

Today we were given a problem from the textbook to get an idea of base and derived classes. It was using cars as an example - if car is a class draw a diagram showing the derived and base classes. Well, I sat there for about five minutes because I simply don't know cars. I finally had to ask one of the guys around me for help and eventually the teacher just put the answer on the board. So I ask him to please not put cars or anything like that on the exam and the other two girls in the class quickly agreed.

Those seem like minor things, right? Well, that's what I was taught to watch for.

Now, here's the question: are things like these truly examples of gender bias, if only an unconcious one? Or are they only significant due to a culture that is blowing bias and predujice way out of proportion?

I betcha you'll all be able to guess my position but I'll post it after we get a couple replies.

[TheEaterofWorlds]

As I've mentioned before, I work in the video game section of a large electronics store. Now, I know video games very well. However some men will not ask me for help because they don't think a woman will know anything about video games. I've even had guys ask me "Is there a man who can help me?" Then they'll go find a male employee..

Only to be refered back to me by a male college who tells them "Ask her, she knows more about video games then anyone else in this store."

I have had to deal with men who have literally said that women belong in the kitchen, or at home having babies.

Then there's the military. I had a pretty fun conversation with someone who came to speak to the Freshmen about joining the military.. Asking about combat limitations on women I got this answer;

"We need women to continue the next generation of America."

Ignoring the fact that there are plenty of fertile women capable of reproducing outside of the military, and that we are trending towards *over*population, I then asked what if the woman was planning to not have children, or to take it futher what if the woman was not able to have children or had been medically sterilized.

He told me that women were nuturers, not killers, that they were not cut out for combat, etc.

That's why we have women on death row for murder, right?

I do recognise that women and men are different, there are things that are easier for a man to do, and there are things that are easier for women to do.

I think that we have made fantastic progress, and I don't think we have very far to go, but there still exist attitudes and stupid people who do think that a woman is less than a man.

I don't like modern feminism. I think most of it has gotten to the point where they don't just seek to raise up women, but to cut down men as well. Are they after real equality, or what?

Also, on average women are still paid less then men for the same jobs, I've met and talked to women who are currently in lawsuits over gender discrimination in their workplaces. This one woman had been with a company for five years, without getting a promised promotion. What's more, she kept seeing the *men* she trained getting the positions she was supposed to.

I don't think that women are as bad off as they were, but I don't think we are really equal yet. Many social problems have been largely improved, but none have disappeared. We still have sexism, racism, and religious persecution in this contry, and I've seen first hand examples of all of them.

I do think that a lot of the minor things may be examples of over analyzing the situation, but it's not just small things that continue to happen. When someone thinks that you are less compitent at your job then your co worker just because you are a woman, it is a slap in the face.

I also think that education slacks off at providing girls with positive female historical rolemodels. (Again, it is probably just because of my crappy school with it's leaking roof and broken windows, no air conditioning) My friend DeeDee wrote a paper on Susan B. Anthony, and no one in her class knew who she was.

Like I've said, we've made great strides in all of this, but... as long as there are sexist attitudes around we have to keep at it. We can't pretend the problem doesn't exist and rest on our laurels, so to speak, or we can end up undoing the progress we've made.

As for girls in your class not knowing much about cars.. my friend Erika goes up to drag strips and races on the weekends. She can tell you what's under a cars hood just by hearing it go by and does a lot of her own modifications. I don't think your professor was being sexist, he probably didn't consider that some women don't know about cars. Some do and some don't.

As for saying 'wow, we don't get may female computer science students', I don't think that's a gender bias. If they don't, they don't. Nothing wrong with stating a fact. I don't think those examples you listed are really gender bias, but that doesn't mean that gender bias doesn't exist or that it isn't a problem.

[Kiddo]

*applauds*

TheEaterofWorlds said:

As for girls in your class not knowing much about cars.. my friend Erika goes up to drag strips and races on the weekends. She can tell you what's under a cars hood just by hearing it go by and does a lot of her own modifications. I don't think your professor was being sexist, he probably didn't consider that some women don't know about cars. Some do and some don't.

As for saying 'wow, we don't get may female computer science students', I don't think that's a gender bias. If they don't, they don't. Nothing wrong with stating a fact. I don't think those examples you listed are really gender bias, but that doesn't mean that gender bias doesn't exist or that it isn't a problem.

You said my opinion right there. I do think that those are NOT examples of gender bias. The reason I brought them up is that is what women in my university are being told to look for as examples of gender bias. I have read essays dissecting the situation I repeated above - the car question - and labeling it as gender bias.

I do think that bias exists. I believe it can exist anywhere and in anything. However, I do not think it is near as widespread as some people would have it portrayed. From personal experience I think that the things you have listed are not the norm, which I believe is an indicator that our society is doing pretty dang good and is not comprised of sexist pigs. (which is what some professors would have me believe...)

The education bit is an interesting point though. I totally agree there - I too would like to see more females I can look up to. It's like superheroes. We have Batman, Spiderman, etc, but no good female superheros. (Except Storm. Storm roxxors) I never had a rolemodel or hero growing up. I'm not saying we need to cut out male important figures, just emphasis the truly important female ones. Aka, glorify Thoreau but make sure to glorify Stowe while you're at it!

[TheEaterofWorlds]

The said:

Aka, glorify Thoreau but make sure to glorify Stowe while you're at it!

Agreed. I'm very tired of the 'man eater' feminists who think that to build a woman up you have to knock a man down. Instead of getting offended when a man holds a door open for you, start holding doors open for men. Instead of just saying "A woman can do what a man can do!", go out and prove it.

****************

PSA- I would like to take the time to point out that no woman should be unable to change her own car tires. Unless you suffer from a disability, chronic back problems, etc, there's really no excuse. Make sure you have a socket wrench, a jack and a flashlight in your trunk or back seat.

Pratice changing your tires while in your driveway, so that you're prepared to do it if you have trouble. Yes, I know that there is always Triple A. They can take over an hour to respond, and it only takes ten minutes to do it yourself.

**************

(Sorry, just had to get that off my chest. I know so many girls who can't change a tire....)

[Kiddo]

Hahahha. Well, I can't change a tire, but I can change fixed disk drives. Is that good enough? (fixed disk drive = computer lingo)

I actually don't like opening doors for guys. I always feel like it's a sign of respect when they open it for me, like they're saying that because I am a woman they will go out of their way to do something nice for me. Granted, not every guy should HAVE to open doors and if you want to open a door for a guy - go for it. I just think it's sweet when they open the door for you. (mainly because a lot of people on campus just elbow their way past you)

[TheEaterofWorlds]

When I say that a woman should be able to change her own tires, it's just because it can be a safety issue. I can't change a fixed disk drive though. He heh.

I like holding doors for people though. ^___^ I was just using that as an example, but you get what I mean. (I hope. I can be kind of obtuse sometimes.)

[Smiley]

Although she doesn't claim to be, my mother is very much a feminist - she's always ridiculing men and their alleged disrespect of women. But how do you expect them to respect you if you don't do the same in return?

I try to do little kind gestures (such as holding a door open) for everyone, man or woman, because all humans deserve a basic respect. I don't believe any gender or other classifying group is less than any other, deserves any less respect, is kinder or meaner or smarter than another. I think it's great that strong women of the past have pushed for equality and strengthened women's rights, but to actually extend to belittle another group is hypocritical and immoral. Reversing the problem is not a solution to the problem.

Now, it seems like women who want to be housewives are looked at as products of a man's control, something which annoys me very much. I would LOVE to be a housewife, to be with my kids, to have a house to myself, and have my husband worry about the finances. If anything I would have more freedom to do what I wanted to do, without schedules or time constraints from anyone else. If I'm happy, shouldn't that be enough for feminists?

Women can vote, run for office, own businesses and properties, have jobs, and basically do whatever they want. We have reached equality. Those who still believe women are fit only for reproduction are outliers. We don't need to cut down every man in order to further our freedoms. I'm happy with the opportunities I have, I don't need anything else, I'm not being controlled by men. Isn't that enough? Isn't that all we ever wanted in the first place?

[TheEaterofWorlds]

I've always thought that women's equality was about choosing what you do with your life, and not having it dictated by others. If you want to raise your kids and stay at home with them, the most empowered thing you can do is make up your mind for yourself. That should be enough for the ultra-feminists. Someone has to do it, and it can be a really tough job.

[The Wanderer]

Let me say this first, so people will realize how I feel:

I am a feminist' worst nightmare. I am their judge, jury, and executioner- you get the idea.

At one point in history, they had a reason. Now, just like many other things in the world right now, they are simply a nuisance.

Let me just say women got their right to vote, their right to have equal opportunity in the work environment, their right to have a say-so in political affairs. (At least, in the U.S.)

But some women didn't stop there. They then start fueling outrage towards men, saying that "they are a bunch of chauvinistic pigs," and that women have always been regarded as "second-class citizens."

After nearly four decades of this needless whining, people today ocassionally refer job titles that end with "man," and replace it with "person."

Today, if a women cries "he sexually harrassed me!" suddenly the accused is Public Enemy #1, thanks to the overdramatics of the national media.

Thanks to all the pointless protests, women, by law, have more protection, and more handicaps that ensure that "women have a fair chance," then men.

Couple that with all these so-called "civil and ethnic rights," some of which are necessary, and the rest just being a pain, one can draw this conclusion: It sure does suck to be a white guy.

[Smiley]

The said:

Let me say this first, so people will realize how I feel:

I am a feminist' worst nightmare. I am their judge, jury, and executioner- you get the idea.

At one point in history, they had a reason. Now, just like many other things in the world right now, they are simply a nuisance.

Let me just say women got their right to vote, their right to have equal opportunity in the work environment, their right to have a say-so in political affairs. (At least, in the U.S.)

But some women didn't stop there. They then start fueling outrage towards men, saying that "they are a bunch of chauvinistic pigs," and that women have always been regarded as "second-class citizens."

After nearly four decades of this needless whining, people today ocassionally refer job titles that end with "man," and replace it with "person."

Today, if a women cries "he sexually harrassed me!" suddenly the accused is Public Enemy #1, thanks to the overdramatics of the national media.

Thanks to all the pointless protests, women, by law, have more protection, and more handicaps that ensure that "women have a fair chance," then men.

Couple that with all these so-called "civil and ethnic rights," some of which are necessary, and the rest just being a pain, one can draw this conclusion: It sure does suck to be a white guy.

Agreed - it's all inescapable fact of our society, and it sickens me.

If a white commits a crime against a black - no matter how minor - it is considered racist. If a man commits a crime against a woman - no matter how minor - it is considered sexist. Switch it around, however, and people suddenly don't have as much sympathy for the victim.

And to think, white men were the only ones who had rights a century or two ago. Now it's flipped, and whites are the subjects of racism, men are being discriminated against. It seems like our society can only function if we have someone to point fingers at so as to clear our own consciences.

Don't get me wrong, though - I truly love the opportunities and rights we have as Americans, I honor them and never try to take them for granted. When you mix people with people there are bound to be disagreements, but I believe we have reached a point where we have the capacity to settle things, talk things over, and arrive at a solution all parties can agree on. Although this isn't true for every case, we're definitely making progress and heading in the right direction. There will always be issues between people and groups of people, some will be favored above others, but overall I think that everyone is equally free and has the ability to support himself or herself and live a good, solid life.

In short: most extreme feminists don't know what they're talking about.

[TheEaterofWorlds]

The said:

Let me say this first, so people will realize how I feel:

I am a feminist' worst nightmare. I am their judge, jury, and executioner- you get the idea.

At one point in history, they had a reason. Now, just like many other things in the world right now, they are simply a nuisance.

Let me just say women got their right to vote, their right to have equal opportunity in the work environment, their right to have a say-so in political affairs. (At least, in the U.S.)

But some women didn't stop there. They then start fueling outrage towards men, saying that "they are a bunch of chauvinistic pigs," and that women have always been regarded as "second-class citizens."

After nearly four decades of this needless whining, people today ocassionally refer job titles that end with "man," and replace it with "person."

Today, if a women cries "he sexually harrassed me!" suddenly the accused is Public Enemy #1, thanks to the overdramatics of the national media.

Thanks to all the pointless protests, women, by law, have more protection, and more handicaps that ensure that "women have a fair chance," then men.

Couple that with all these so-called "civil and ethnic rights," some of which are necessary, and the rest just being a pain, one can draw this conclusion: It sure does suck to be a white guy.

Women *have* always been regarded as second class citizens.

Just how does it suck to be a white guy? Just because other minority groups and women now finally have the same rights that they have had since this country was formed? I'd like to see these opinions backed up with facts.

I will say that affirmative action can limit the amount of perfectly deserving non-minorities that get into certain colleges, and push out some people with higher GPAs. This is both men and women. (Though I really, really don't want this to become an afirmative action debate)

So just what civil or ethnic right has screwed you out of your rights? How are you being persecuted?

Today, if a women cries "he sexually harrassed me!" suddenly the accused is Public Enemy #1, thanks to the overdramatics of the national media

Then that's really the media's fault, not feminists. Sexual harassment is very, very serious. Both men and women have the right to file a claim if they are sexually harassed, so the women don't automatically have the upper hand. If a claim doesn't have proof, it's not going to stand up just because the claim is made against a man and is by a woman.

Studies suggest anywhere between 40-70% of women and 10-20% of men have experienced sexual harassment in the workplace.

Approximately 15,000 sexual harassment cases are brought to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) each year. According to the EEOC, the number of sexual harassment complaints filed by men has more than tripled in recent years.

Sexual harassment policies exist to protect men AND women, not to 'vitcimize' poor, poor white men.

An even bigger but very similar issue is rape. Men have accused women of rape and won, and there are women who charged men with rape and lost.

According to the US department of justice, there is a woman raped every two minutes. This calculation is based on the 2002 National Victimization survey. In 2002, seven out of every eight rape victims were women.

From the same report;

If the rape is reported to police, there is a 50.8% chance that an arrest will be made.

If an arrest is made, there is an 80% chance of prosecution.

If there is a prosecution, there is a 58% chance of a felony conviction.

If there is a felony conviction, there is a 69% chance the convict will spend time in jail.

So, even in the 39% of attacks that are reported to police, there is only a 16.3% chance the rapist will end up in prison.

Factoring in unreported rapes, about 6% of rapists—1 out of 16— will ever spend a day in jail. 15 out of 16 will walk free.

[Probability statistics compiled by NCPA from US Department of Justice statistics. See www.ncpa.org/studies/s229/s229.html]


White men have been able to vote and own property since this country was formed, every president has been a white man, and there is a 25 to thirty precent gap between what a man earns and what a women earns; according to data from the U.S. Census Bureau women last year made about 75 cents for every dollar a man made, down from almost 77 cents in 2002. Twenty years ago, women made nearly 64 cents for every dollar earned by a man.

"Men with professional degrees may expect to cumulatively earn almost $2 million more than their female counterparts over their work lives." (U.S. Census Bureau )

So yes, the gap is closing, but it's not gone yet. Should I just shut up and take it, or should I become one of the nuisances you talk about? Would you like to explain how you have it so much worse then women, let alone minority groups?

[Oily]

Mm, I do think some things have been overhyped while others have not. There still is a wage gap between men and women, and still men are promoted above women on issues of gender. Feminists ought to take on all unfair aspects - like the fact that some women who want/have children are not hired because "you'll take maternity leave" or "you'll want part time hours because of children."

So there still is a big gap between men and women and I think feminists did a lot to change that gap and are unfairly misaligned. But I do believe in a women's right to work or to stay at home and have children or do both - all are equally good.

[Ducky ish lazy]

Gender bias DOES exist, not as much as it used to, or as badly. It's just a few people who have to act like that now. Take my mom's boss, for example. My mom is the only person at her work, and her boss doesn't..erm..treat her fairly. For example, this is what happened to her one day.

Boss: *mopping up an oil spill* *sees my mom pass by* *throws mop at her* "Here. You're a woman. You should know how to do this."

Mom: "Haha. Funny. Excuse me, but I'm the receptionist, not the janitor."

Boss: "Whatever. A woman's place is in the house."

Mom: "Yeah, and in the senate!"

Boss: "If you didn't have such a sucky attitude maybe you could bag yourself a man."

According to some of her coworkers, that's how the boss treated all the other female employees before they eventually quit. My mom has come home crying many days because of situations similar to this. I do agree that gender bias isn't as bad anymore, and that feminism is a little..out of date, but gender discrimination DOES still exist.

[Rider]

[glow=red,2,300]Thank God I don't have much experience in this field. But I just decided to drop by and throw in my 2 cents.

In Jr. High, there was this son of a -lady dog- who basically told me I was worthless in the real world 'cause I'm Korean, and a female. I could've beaten him up over it easily (and occasionally Waterboy did have to restrain me. Yeah, I had a terrible temper when I was younger.) Thankfully, WB always reminded me of our troll-esque assistant principal and the fact that I didn't want to mess up my permanent record.

The point of that ramble is; as long as there are people like this boy, and Ducky's mom's boss, there's gonna be a gap. If this boy ever grows up to own a company, he will probably pay women less. (An educated guess, I''m not being bitter.) And it's true that women aren't paid as much as men in a lot of places.

We've made huge strides. Women are right there beside men, and all we have is a couple more inches to go. Are there people who blow this thing out of proportion? You bet.

And fantasy novels; ever notice how the main character is usually a noble-born girl? I find that very amusing, considering most of them are set in medieval times and noble women were horses to be traded at market. ;D

EDIT: Remind me never to join a debate team...[/glow]

[Jessica Coconut]

I am a feminist, but I don't seek to cut down men. I do think a lot are stupid, ignorant (TRUST ME. You have NO IDEA.), and could do with manners and other apple-pie words (you know what I mean, kindness, honesty, a more open attitude...), but not because they're against women. Because they are. Oh, no offence or anything, but I mean there are some people like this kid in grade 8, he thinks anyone that listens to Japanese music is gay or les, and when I ask if he has a problem with those people, he gives a plain yes. Makes me SICK.

But when I speak about feminism, I don't mean how guys should be taken down a peg or 2, I mean how womens stories are often ignored. The most famous people are men. Face it. Maybe that's our fault, for not trying that hard. Female writers? Umm... Elizabeth Barret Browning. Politicians? I know they exist, but I don't remember them. Maybe because there's so few. Just awesome females in general? Rosa Parks... Mother Theresa... Marie Curie. That was REALLY hard to come up with.

I'm more of the empowerment type. I don't seek to make things "fair". I believe politically, socially, economically, (In developed countries) we have it great. I seek to get these great women to TRY to do something special, and to TRY for a job in computer sciences... to SPEAK UP. To get really good at what they do. Wouldn't it be nice to see a woman's face on Mt. Rushmore? The men are up there because they made a real difference. I want to see a woman do that great. To really TRY. I may not be American, but I know these things.

It reminds me of our Phys Ed football classes. Our team lost every game except one. I know why. We didn't use all of our players. Myself, and another girl were always just there to run up and look busy so we'd all get good marks for running the pass pattern. But they'd never pass to us, not because we were girls, but because we weren't looked at as good as them. (there was another girl on the team, but she's awesome at football)

Now, I guess that's kinda understandable,to not pass to someone that can't catch too well (I can catch, but it's difficult)... but the point is, think of all the great things we could do, and how great our society would be, if we made an effort to use all of our people? I'm sure their are women with great ideas and things. Sometimes you just need a different opinion to spark something great. Women have different opinions.

Now, did you ever notice that some of the meanest things you can say to a guy is "Sissy, B*tch, Girlie, "you throw like a girl" " All of these are quite feminine, at their root. I think this, while obviously insulting to them, the intended target, is also insulting to women, because you're using feminine references as insults. Seriously, when you say that, I say, "What the heck is that supposed to mean?" I'm often in earshot of these comments. How do you think we feel? It's like using our names as insults. "You can't throw, you throw like Jessica!" Get it?

On a side note, while sexism in the west is quite weak, in other places in the world, it runs rampant. Did you know that in some places, it's a crime to BE raped? You're supposed to commit suicide if that happens.