|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2004 19:00:07 GMT -5
What you describe there is known as "Survival of the Fittest." Which I never denied. It happens. But prove to me such equestarians without stripes ever existed in Africa. Show me these missing links. I'm not talking jig-sawed bone pieces and fragments found miles and miles apart from each other in the african desert (that is a huge discredit to evolution right there). So you can't say evolution itself has any proven-correctly hypotheses. Survival of the Fittest, in this case, can't be considered evolution, because there is so much in evolution itself that basically personifies nature and genes. Saying it creates genes for help and so forth. See what I'm saying? If you care to continue this point further, I suggest you make another thread about it, as it has no bearing in this topic--and THAT'S the last I'm going to say here. |
|
|
|
Post by Stal on Jul 22, 2004 19:06:09 GMT -5
If you care to continue this point further, I suggest you make another thread about it, as it has no bearing in this topic--and THAT'S the last I'm going to say here. You know, I hate people who feel this need to respond and drag something out about what I've said, even though it's not on topic. When I respond the same people then tell me I'm off topic and need to make a new thread to discuss it in. Normally that happens right after I make valid arguments to which they cannot respond *shrugs* Something to keep in mind: I'm liable to respond to anything anyone says, whether it has a bearing on the topic itself or not. The fact they're using it as support brings it open for discussion. I'm even more liable to respond to something said when someone responds to me and something I've said. If you don't want me discussing it, then keep your mouth shut.  A tad harsh, but I've dealt with too many instances of this and I'm tired of it. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2004 19:07:51 GMT -5
Perhaps I should've rephrased myself, homosexuality was one of many other reasons in Rome's cultural decadence.
Romans expressed an inordinate desire for luxury. Wealthy Romans lived a sumptuous lifestyle even by our own standards. Much of this wealth derived at the expense of others. In addition, the Romans were never satisfied.
Human life became cheap. The Empire operated on the enslavement of others. Romans owned so many slaves that they lived in constant fear of a slave revolt. Slave revolts were not unknown. Spartacus led a brief, but intense, revolt before the first century. At one point, a master could put his slave to death for inconsequential reasons. By the first century things were changing but life was still cheap.
Roman abortion practices revealed a disrespect for life as well. Physicians prescribed various medications to induce abortion. Rather than using abortants, many Romans exposed their children. That is, they took infants into the country leaving them to die by exposure, to be found by others or by wild animals. Quite often Romans found exposed infants and raised them as slaves or servants.
Roman society displayed overt sexual deviation and perversion. Homosexuality increased dramatically. Homosexuality always marks the decline of a civilization. Historians believe Nero "enjoyed" young boys. Nero enjoyed the stage and most Roman actors lived a gay lifestyle. Others were bisexual.
Pornography and perversion in art were common. Romans demonstrated no modesty about exhibiting their sexual preferences. For many years only archaeologists entered Pompeii because its residents portrayed pornographic scenes on bedroom, dining room and outside walls of their homes.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2004 19:13:37 GMT -5
You know, I hate people who feel this need to respond and drag something out about what I've said, even though it's not on topic. When I respond the same people then tell me I'm off topic and need to make a new thread to discuss it in. Normally that happens right after I make valid arguments to which they cannot respond *shrugs* Something to keep in mind: I'm liable to respond to anything anyone says, whether it has a bearing on the topic itself or not. The fact they're using it as support brings it open for discussion. I'm even more liable to respond to something said when someone responds to me and something I've said. If you don't want me discussing it, then keep your mouth shut. :) A tad harsh, but I've dealt with too many instances of this and I'm tired of it. I've been insulted, so I guess I'm goign to talk again: Trust me, I know of lots of ways to respond. I didn't pass Biology with all A's and learn nothing about Evolution. You're right about using this topic for the main topic. It does a bearing on it. I merely meant that if you wished to continue the discussion about evloution--and only evolution--that we should do so in a different topic, so as to be courteous to those that wish to debate homosexuality without wading through our neverending debate. |
|
|
|
Post by Stal on Jul 22, 2004 19:21:35 GMT -5
I've been insulted, so I guess I'm goign to talk again: Trust me, I know of lots of ways to respond. I didn't pass Biology with all A's and learn nothing about Evolution. You're right about using this topic for the main topic. It does a bearing on it. I merely meant that if you wished to continue the discussion about evloution--and only evolution--that we should do so in a different topic, so as to be courteous to those that wish to debate homosexuality without wading through our neverending debate. No, it was just a general comment. Becuase you pulled the same stunt I get so tired of. And I wanted it known, if you don't want people to respond to something said, keep your mouth shut (Your being a general all-inclusive term, not speaking to you only). Oh, and by the way, I also passed Biology with all A's and I learned about evolution as well.  Yet we have opposing sides here, eh? That type of usage of grades and so forth is rather pointless, if you ask me. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2004 19:34:29 GMT -5
Oh, and by the way, I also passed Biology with all A's and I learned about evolution as well. ;) Yet we have opposing sides here, eh? That type of usage of grades and so forth is rather pointless, if you ask me. I said I learned about it and can now fully understand it, I never said that my grades were why I believed in it (I did before my Biology class). |
|
|
|
Post by Buddy on Jul 22, 2004 21:14:33 GMT -5
Okay, then, I'll clarify the rule:
We are not contained to the topic of "gay marriage" on this thread. Many issues are interconnected, so it is perfectly acceptable to move from one topic to another. In fact, I would encouarge it! It represents, to some degree, thinking outside the box.
Buddy has spoken.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jessica Coconut on Jul 22, 2004 21:31:54 GMT -5
What I said back there about it not being choice or birth that you are gay, is exactly what I meant. People aren't born gay, they are created. Whatever you experience changes your perception of the world and things around you, so eventually, a boy might see another boy as attractive instead of girls.
|
|
|
|
Post by Crystal on Jul 23, 2004 0:54:50 GMT -5
IT'S ALIIIIVE!
The thread I mean. X.X
I believe I've more or less exhausted my opinion on this topic quite some time ago. Morally and religiously, I'm against it. Friendship-wise, I'm uncomfortable with it. Upbringing wise, it's still considered 'dirty', 'disgusting', 'ewwy' here, 'gay' being a common insult and making people go "Oh ICK!". Not many people here are gay - I've never known any gay person in my life with the exception of over the Internet...
You could say we're underdeveloped and uncivilized or something. I don't know whether Islam condones or darns homosexuality, but if it is against it, it'll never be legal here. I wouldn't switch this thinking for anything, though.
There, now to sit back and wait for the angry rebuttals to come. ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by Oily on Jul 23, 2004 10:48:52 GMT -5
*twiddles thumbs* There is no scientific evidence for this "gay gene", you know. That is something even advocates have admited. It's yet to be found. Probably because it doesn't exist.  After all, what gene would be produced like that, via evolution? Evolution only puts forth genes beneficial to the strengthening and preservation of a race. And God sure wouldn't create a gay gene then say homosexuality is wrong, no would He? Let me pose a question to you...if gay/bisexual is all based on one's mindset, and not choice...then what's with pornstars? Especially the female ones. They seem to go both ways rather easily. To them it's a matter of choice, and not genetics. One final question...take a look at those who're "Bisexual". How many of them are girls? A good majority, correct? I can probably guess why, no problem. Girls have this ability to say another girl is attractive, hot, pretty, so forth. Guys, for the most part, lack that ability. But in society today, pretty much you're told if you find someone of the same gender attractive, you're gay/bisexual and there's nothing you can do about it. So that's why a lot of the girls growing up today begin doing that. That's my huge opinion on that part right there. Well, firstly, evolution still leaves in a lot of genes that aren't beneficial. Cancer, for instance. Genes that make us suspectible to disease. Many non beneficial things are contained within us. I'd say for some people, it is choice. But that's not being gay or bi. That's not caring and being quite happy to take whoever comes along. And there's theories some people do it to get attention or attract the opposite sex. All girls say other girls are pretty ^_^ It doesn't make us all bi or gay. It just makes us able to appreciate beauty wherever we find. I remember some guy was complaining that he could find guys handsome, but never say it because people would say he was gay, when he knew he wasn't. And I know two people with no mental stress at all - they live sheltered, wonderful lives and they're bi/gay. I don't think the Roman Empire really comes into it. I was using it as an example to show that homosexuality was accepted at some point in history. I'm sure their downfall came about from the laziness and decadence of the upper classes and from the huge expanse of their Empire simply being too big. In fact, I came across a great article in the paper the other day on evolution. Basically, there's two groups of creatures. They're preyed on by hermit crabs. One group lives up the beach, one lives further down. One group has got bigger and bigger shells, with bigger eggs and small eggs have an 80% abortion rate. The higher group has developed another technique for survival, and produces smaller eggs. These are the same species, slowly diverging. When a creature from each group is encouraged to mate, they won't. A defining factor in a species is mating with each other, usually. So these creatures are slowly evolving away from each other. Survival of the fittest is like evolution in a way - it all ties in. |
|
|
|
Post by mushroom on Jul 24, 2004 3:03:17 GMT -5
What about atomic theory? That's pretty widely accepted, but it's still called a theory.
Also, if you're requiring direct observation to validate an idea, are you throwing out the vast majority of archaeology as well? What about linguistics? Some of that work involves reconstructing the ancient, dead tongues through comparison of the modern ones--and of course, there aren't any tapes of those languages to listen to.
|
|
|
|
Post by althechia on Jul 26, 2004 1:25:57 GMT -5
You know, not to stray off topic, but I'm kind of confused by everyone saying that homosexuality is a choice, something that can be turned on and off. Hurt, even.
I'm gay myself, so I'd like to think I'm a bit of an authority on this topic. I never remember making a conscious choice to like people of my own gender. I've known I've been gay for a long time. But I'm not 'outwardly' gay. That is, I don't loudly proclaim that I'm gay to every person I see. I am who I am, and I really try not to force it onto people.
The only choice one really has if one is a homosexual is whether to hide it and pretend to be straight, or to simply accept who they are. My parents and friends are very accepting, but sadly a lot of people don't have any support on being 'out of the closet.'
They live in communities were gay people, or even people who 'act' gay, are persecuted. Their parents would disown them. There are thousands of gay teenagers living on the streets because their parents couldn't accept who they were and kicked them out. There's also a high rate of depression and suicide amongst gay teenagers. We're seen as something less than human by America's traditional societal standards. Homosexuality was once classified as a mental disease.
If one has a conscious choice about homosexuality, who in heaven or hell would willingly choose to be so miserable? To be so widely and wildly persecuted, insulted, and stereotyped? To live this way for the rest of their lives?
What more, choosing to be out or in isn't a flimsy choice. It isn't anything like selecting a political position, or what goddarned wallpaper looks better with your couch. To tell me that it is can feel really, really insulting.
At times, I'd love to be straight. But I'm NOT, and I CAN'T be. I cringe at the thought of heterosexuality, and I can't imagine being anything but gay. I DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. And if because of that, I'm a disgusting pervert who isn't worthy of something like marriage, that what I have isn't exactly love for other male people because of the same standards that once said black people and women weren't exactly people, then so be it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Smiley on Jul 26, 2004 12:20:07 GMT -5
You know, not to stray off topic, but I'm kind of confused by everyone saying that homosexuality is a choice, something that can be turned on and off. Hurt, even. I'm gay myself, so I'd like to think I'm a bit of an authority on this topic. I never remember making a conscious choice to like people of my own gender. I've known I've been gay for a long time. But I'm not 'outwardly' gay. That is, I don't loudly proclaim that I'm gay to every person I see. I am who I am, and I really try not to force it onto people. The only choice one really has if one is a homosexual is whether to hide it and pretend to be straight, or to simply accept who they are. My parents and friends are very accepting, but sadly a lot of people don't have any support on being 'out of the closet.' They live in communities were gay people, or even people who 'act' gay, are persecuted. Their parents would disown them. There are thousands of gay teenagers living on the streets because their parents couldn't accept who they were and kicked them out. There's also a high rate of depression and suicide amongst gay teenagers. We're seen as something less than human by America's traditional societal standards. Homosexuality was once classified as a mental disease. If one has a conscious choice about homosexuality, who in heaven or hell would willingly choose to be so miserable? To be so widely and wildly persecuted, insulted, and stereotyped? To live this way for the rest of their lives? What more, choosing to be out or in isn't a flimsy choice. It isn't anything like selecting a political position, or what goddarned wallpaper looks better with your couch. To tell me that it is can feel really, really insulting. At times, I'd love to be straight. But I'm NOT, and I CAN'T be. I cringe at the thought of heterosexuality, and I can't imagine being anything but gay. I DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. And if because of that, I'm a disgusting pervert who isn't worthy of something like marriage, that what I have isn't exactly love for other male people because of the same standards that once said black people and women weren't exactly people, then so be it. I completely agree with you, and I admire your courage to come out and admit your sexuality. A few days ago, my mom, my brother, and his friend were flipping through channels. They landed on some music channel, and called me out of my room. t.A.T.u. was performing. My brother, sniggering, asked if I liked them. "Yeah, so what if I do?" "Well, I mean... look... it's just gross! You think they should be able to get married?" "If that's your outlook, then you WON'T ever get married, because no man or woman would be able to stand your cruelty, you [insert choice words here]." I then went into my room and slammed the door shut because I was so angry. It ticks me off so much how some heterosexual people (some, not all) think that they are ABOVE homosexuals, how they think that they can take away marriage and even their rights to be treated as human as though gays are an inferior species. It isn't a choice, either, as Al said. You can't call it a choice when people everywhere are being torn up over the issue of whether they are or not, thinking about it constantly, wondering and fearing how the world will accept them once they make their sexuality known. It isn't a choice, and they shouldn't be punished for it. It doesn't affect you in any way, you aren't forced to attend the weddings. I do like the philisophy of one county, I think it was in Oregon... well, a lot of their citizens were against gay marriage, so the county office said, "Fine! If gays can't get married here, nobody can." And it is now impossible to get a marriage license from them, gay or not. It's cruel, yes, but now the heterosexual couples will be able to feel the way homosexuals feel, trying to get a marriage license and not being able to. I really wish that they didn't have to go that far, but if its going to show people what homosexuals go through, then so be it. Just my two cents. |
|
|
|
Post by Buddy on Jul 26, 2004 17:17:28 GMT -5
I kind of like that law in Oregon... perhaps more places should consider it...
And at the risk of sounding cheesy or a suck-up, I think I want to congratulate Al on having the guts to "come out". I seriously doubt I'd ever be able to do that....
|
|
|
|
Post by Crystal on Jul 26, 2004 19:56:45 GMT -5
You know, not to stray off topic, but I'm kind of confused by everyone saying that homosexuality is a choice, something that can be turned on and off. Hurt, even. I'm gay myself, so I'd like to think I'm a bit of an authority on this topic. I never remember making a conscious choice to like people of my own gender. I've known I've been gay for a long time. But I'm not 'outwardly' gay. That is, I don't loudly proclaim that I'm gay to every person I see. I am who I am, and I really try not to force it onto people. The only choice one really has if one is a homosexual is whether to hide it and pretend to be straight, or to simply accept who they are. My parents and friends are very accepting, but sadly a lot of people don't have any support on being 'out of the closet.' They live in communities were gay people, or even people who 'act' gay, are persecuted. Their parents would disown them. There are thousands of gay teenagers living on the streets because their parents couldn't accept who they were and kicked them out. There's also a high rate of depression and suicide amongst gay teenagers. We're seen as something less than human by America's traditional societal standards. Homosexuality was once classified as a mental disease. If one has a conscious choice about homosexuality, who in heaven or hell would willingly choose to be so miserable? To be so widely and wildly persecuted, insulted, and stereotyped? To live this way for the rest of their lives? What more, choosing to be out or in isn't a flimsy choice. It isn't anything like selecting a political position, or what goddarned wallpaper looks better with your couch. To tell me that it is can feel really, really insulting. At times, I'd love to be straight. But I'm NOT, and I CAN'T be. I cringe at the thought of heterosexuality, and I can't imagine being anything but gay. I DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. And if because of that, I'm a disgusting pervert who isn't worthy of something like marriage, that what I have isn't exactly love for other male people because of the same standards that once said black people and women weren't exactly people, then so be it. Wow, Al, I didn't know you were gay! *blinkblink* Wow. |
|
Yet we have opposing sides here, eh? That type of usage of grades and so forth is rather pointless, if you ask me.
After all, what gene would be produced like that, via evolution? Evolution only puts forth genes beneficial to the strengthening and preservation of a race. And God sure wouldn't create a gay gene then say homosexuality is wrong, no would He?