Cloning Issue Again

[Deleted]

I just finished reading this amazing book called "House of the Scorpion" and basically, it's about this clone named Matt. I won't go too much into detail about that, but the book raised a lot of good points about cloning: Would clones have souls? Would they be considered human? Would it be ok to keep clones simply for 'harvesting' organs from them to extend your own life?

I'm just interested in hearing people's viewpoints about these, although I do know we've discussed this before.

[mushroom]

*shrugs* What would make a clone any different than an "original" person? Identical twins are just about the same thing, except twins are much closer than a clone and their DNA donor would be (with the inevitable environmental differences); if test-tube "originals" are fully human, test-tube twins are as well.

[KittyKadaveral]

I think it's wrong to play Creator and do stuff like that, but if it's for medical reasons like cloning livers or hearts and things that I would not have a problem with.

I think any human, or animal for that matter, would indeed have a spirit since all things do have a spirit whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. The human aspect would be yes, they would have rights too (as would the animals) since they are still living creatures who have a right to the life force as anyone else.

[thegreenmooseofdoom]

KittyKadaveral said:

I think it's wrong to play Creator and do stuff like that, but if it's for medical reasons like cloning livers or hearts and things that I would not have a problem with.

I think any human, or animal for that matter, would indeed have a spirit since all things do have a spirit whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. The human aspect would be yes, they would have rights too (as would the animals) since they are still living creatures who have a right to the life force as anyone else.

I agree wholeheartedly.
However, if they ONLY cloned the organs that they needed and didn't make a whole new person for the purpose of cutting out their innards, I think that would be perfectly fine. I think that to have a soul, you have to have a working mind and a whole body.

[Oily]

I think clones would just be as any other human, except being genetically identical to the "original." I don't think you can really "harvest" organs from them (lol, reminds me of me and my friends - our war cry being "I'll harvest your organs!" followed by a leap for their kidneys ) as they'd be just like any other human. I do think you could probably clone just organs though...and I rather fancy having two hearts at some point

[The Wanderer]

MY OWN OPINION:

There is no point for clones. Especially, if they are created for the heck of it.

Even if it was for harvesting organs. Its wrong to create life. period. Especially, if we create life just to extract vital organs. Even if humans created that life, then it is still murder, right down to the very essence.

We die for a reason. If we do this kind of thing to prolong life, then we are paving the way for further overpopulation.

I know that we all want to live for as long as we possibly can. Most of us have good intentions for wanting to live longer. But there are always some bad seeds out there, wanting to live on for themselves, and themselves alone.

We live; therefore we die. I dont think human meddling is a good idea, when it comes to playing God.

[Buddy]

I think most people seem rather uninformed about cloning...

First off, you can't use cloning in it of itself to live longer - its not as if, if you make a clone for yourself, you'll suddenly be transpoarted to the newer, healthier body.

When talking about growing new hearts and stuff, well, I think we're a long ways off from that. I can't see us learning to grow new hearts and lungs and hands and stuff in our life-time. Just the general physics of it don't make sense. However, that isn't exactly cloning. That's an off-shoot of it, and something that would come along with it, but is not in itself cloning.

Truthfully, I don't know a whole lot about it myself - the specifics, anyway. But from what I know, it's basically the same thing as invetro-fertilization. Only, instead of a child with random features from both parents, it has the features of whoever's DNA was used.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I think I may be. But I'm pretty sure that's the gist of it.

I really don't have a problem with it, not that I think it makes much of a difference. I personally would not want my son to look like me (trust me! I wouldn't want to put anyone through that torture!) and besides, I seriously doubt something like that would ever catch on. It would only be useful as an alternative for people who can't have children. And really, what's so "playing God" about that?

Children who are cloned are just like normal children, only they look exactly like whoever they were cloned from. That's about it.

[Ducky being lazy]

Buddy said:

I think most people seem rather uninformed about cloning...

First off, you can't use cloning in it of itself to live longer - its not as if, if you make a clone for yourself, you'll suddenly be transpoarted to the newer, healthier body.

When talking about growing new hearts and stuff, well, I think we're a long ways off from that. I can't see us learning to grow new hearts and lungs and hands and stuff in our life-time. Just the general physics of it don't make sense. However, that isn't exactly cloning. That's an off-shoot of it, and something that would come along with it, but is not in itself cloning.

Hmm...that's not exactly what I meant.
In the book, there is this man called El Patron, and that is who Matt is cloned from. When El Patron is 146 (this takes place in the future, by the way) and Matt is 14, El Patron has a terrible heart attack and needs a heart transplant, and then Matt finds out that the sole reason he was created was to supply that heart for him and that he would be killed and his heart given to El Patron.

[Buddy]

Guest-Ducky said:

Hmm...that's not exactly what I meant.
In the book, there is this man called El Patron, and that is who Matt is cloned from. When El Patron is 146 (this takes place in the future, by the way) and Matt is 14, El Patron has a terrible heart attack and needs a heart transplant, and then Matt finds out that the sole reason he was created was to supply that heart for him and that he would be killed and his heart given to El Patron.

Indeed, I now know the general plot of a story I was planning on reading...

Something like that would never happen. Ever. It would never be allowed. It would never even come close. Ever.

[Deleted]

thegreenmooseofdoom said:

I agree wholeheartedly.
However, if they ONLY cloned the organs that they needed and didn't make a whole new person for the purpose of cutting out their innards, I think that would be perfectly fine. I think that to have a soul, you have to have a working mind and a whole body.

What do you mean by the working mind bit? Do you mean that functions at all, or functions properly? If it was the later wouldnt that be like saying people with mental disorders have no right to a soul? And also, what about deformations?

I hope you dont see this as twisting your words... I'm just sayin'...

[Deleted]

Buddy said:

Indeed, I now know the general plot of a story I was planning on reading...

Something like that would never happen. Ever. It would never be allowed. It would never even come close. Ever.

Crap. I am so sorry Buddy. I just gave away one of the twists in the book..Anyways, there are a lot more twists and turns in it and...*shuts up before she leaks anymore*

[Buddy]

Ducky-At said:

Crap. I am so sorry Buddy. I just gave away one of the twists in the book..Anyways, there are a lot more twists and turns in it and...*shuts up before she leaks anymore*

It's okay.

[Torey]

I don't really know a lot about cloning, I try not to get involved with it or know anything about it, although I do think it's wrong. To me, cloning is messing with nature. Nature was intended to stay natural. Why bring technology into things? It just isn't right. I also agree that cloned things don't have souls. Heck, I don't even believe cloned humans are human, and I don't think cloned animals are animals. If I could have my way I'd ban cloning. I don't care if cloning could help medically. We've got on fine without it. And if people die from diseases when cloning could help them survive then they die. Dying is a fact of life and in my opinion, life isn't something to mess with.

[thegreenmooseofdoom]

Rishiy said:

What do you mean by the working mind bit? Do you mean that functions at all, or functions properly? If it was the later wouldnt that be like saying people with mental disorders have no right to a soul? And also, what about deformations?

I hope you dont see this as twisting your words... I'm just sayin'...

Oh no, I don't mean that at all!
It's very hard to define what makes a soul, but I think you have to have sentience and self-awareness to have one. That's what I meant about the working mind bit, I should have made that more clear.
Aaaand, on second thought, a body doesn't seem like it would be needed to have a soul. I believe the Earth has a soul, after all, and it's not 'living' in the conventional sense. But it doesn't really have sentience either... I'm confused now. I now have no idea what qualifies as something having a soul.
I'll go shut up and retreat to my corner now.

[Oily]

Ginger said:

I don't really know a lot about cloning, I try not to get involved with it or know anything about it, although I do think it's wrong. To me, cloning is messing with nature. Nature was intended to stay natural. Why bring technology into things? It just isn't right. I also agree that cloned things don't have souls. Heck, I don't even believe cloned humans are human, and I don't think cloned animals are animals. If I could have my way I'd ban cloning. I don't care if cloning could help medically. We've got on fine without it. And if people die from diseases when cloning could help them survive then they die. Dying is a fact of life and in my opinion, life isn't something to mess with.

Yeah, but we meddled with nature when we started, for example, driving cars and curing diseases.

I wouldn't define a soul, but clones would just be the same as any other human - they'd just be genetically identical to one person. You can't really live longer just because you have a clone. Similarly, they'd be a person, so you can't start cutting out organs willy-nilly

But you could just clone organs from yourself. It would be like getting an organ transplant, with less chance of rejection. And I don't believe the organ would have a soul. It does, in fact, remove the moral objections for transplants too - as the organ would not be taken from anyone.