My brother's article keeps getting immediately rejected?

[Ian Wolf-Park]

Nearly everyone who talked about the tone/style was the main reason I said I was confused. Yes, it's supposed to be an article, but there were times it felt more like an opinion piece, especially with the amount of rhetorical questions and your (well, your brother's) opinion sparsely placed throughout the article.

As Twillie mentioned, there's definitely some sort of disconnect between us and you/your brother, but I suppose part of the reason for that is that you're acting as the middle person with you relaying what we say back to your brother and vice versa. Along the way, part of the message is lost.

[Kaljinyu]

Okay, so it's not just part 4, it's the whole thing. Alright, let's go over the sins the article means to point out, and see how they focus on Jumpstaff, and if there's a way to make them about the site alone.

...I started to try and list them all, but there were a lot of them, and I don't know if anyone is willing to break down every accusation made in this article and figure out what's Jumpstaffy about them, and how they can be less Jumpstaffy. Before I go through and list them all, is anyone willing to do that or is that too much? Is that up to my brother?

Also, my brother's not aiming to put anyone off... that doesn't deserve it anyway. He doesn't wanna put off readers, which is why he wants to make these critiques, in the Times, in a way that doesn't upset players. If he can. He might not be able to. It might be one of those unfixable problems.

Speaking of unfixable problems, if this article is for readers, why is he telling them this? What is he asking them to do? They can't fix the site. So is it for Jumpstaff? Thinking about it, he feels like his goal here is to "keep the dialogues going." To keep the issue alive, and not brushed aside. Not forgotten by players, and not glossed over by Jumpstaff when they manage to make an improvement or two. Maybe in the hopes that one day Jumpstaff will do right by all the wrong that's been done. So who would that make the article for?

EDIT: Didn't notice Ian up there. Okay, we're still kinda lost on what the difference is between an "article" and an "opinion piece." It's an article about things that should be fixed/things that Jumpstaff does below standard, where is the line between "article" and "opinion piece" there?

[Jae]

May I ask why your brother is so adamant at getting this into the Times even though CQ has essentially said she won't ever publish it?

If CQ is rejecting it so quickly so consistently, then that right there is the writing on the wall. She doesn't want this in the Neopian Times. And she's well within her rights to reject it; stepping aside from the content, this is a massive wall of text with much more than its fair share of formatting and styling. I like playing with coding and even I wouldn't want to tweak this to fit into the NT structure - the GMC image with Jazan and Razul alone seems like it'd be too big to fit into the NT content area, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

It's well-written to be fair, but the intelligent vocabulary and sentence structures don't even come close to masking the air of whiny entitlement present throughout the piece. Your brother is basically saying to TNT "You've been running the site all wrong since you got here. My friends and I are the absolute authority on Neopets and our word is gospel, so here's how you should run the site instead." We can't even get CQ to acknowledge major site bugs/issues in the editorial half the time, and you guys though this had a chance?

That second-to-last bit is also an issue for the average Neopian Times reader. It's uncomfortable to read and the tone comes across as kinda speaking for a lot of people that your brother doesn't have the right to speak for. Maybe some people like the new items. Maybe they like the new wearables and pet colors. Maybe they like the new events and characters. Maybe they like being able to take a breather between major site events and not have to worry about missing an exclusive avatar or site event trophy every single day of the year. You two seem to be of the opinion that the majority of players want to read this - they go to the Neopian Times specifically in the hopes of seeing this. Hell, you refer to NT readers as 'the masses' in one of your replies to this thread, along with speaking of 'fun escapism players' like some sort of exotic creature you've never seen before and aren't sure how to handle. One of the biggest hurdles of getting your writing published by a third party - from novels and national newspapers all the way down to a step above fanfiction/fictionpress like Neopets - is knowing your audience. A well-written piece - which, again your brother clearly is a good writer and this shows it - will fail every single time if it's not right for the audience: liberal thinkpieces will be rejected from Fox News, an easily-accessible space opera will be rejected from a publication seeking literary fiction, a long rant with palpable negativity towards the site and the people who still play it will be rejected from the Neopian Times.



tl;dr (although if you read that article, I fully expect you to be able to read my post): CQ is rejecting it because she doesn't want to spend hours of her work day proofreading and editing a 10,000 word article - a 10,000 word article that the average user would not care to read, at that - that's all about how terrible she and her coworkers/family are and how poorly they've been running Neopets. Aaand I can't say I blame her.

Now, I'll ask again: what is his goal of getting this published in the NT?

Is it to spread the word and have people know this is how he feels about the site? If so, then I'd recommend posting it elsewhere. Leave it here, put it on a petpage, link it on Reddit, start up his own alternative Neopian newspaper.

Is it to be published in the Times for the sake of being published (trophy/avatar/desire to see his writing in print)? Then gut like 75% of it - definitely remove references to Jumpstaff as though they are a separate entity from TNT, as well as references to Jellyneo - and frame it as a retrospective piece, as Shinko said. And say a quick prayer to Fyora that your brother hasn't burned all his bridges with CQ and she doesn't reject anything he submits on sight.

[Kaljinyu]

Hey Jae! Well we don't know that she won't ever publish it, we're wondering if maybe she's rejecting it because it needs improvements. And not because it's whiny and entitled.

But about whiny and entitled, what then is any critical article but whiny and entitled? What is any critical article but saying "I don't like this, here's something better that it should be instead?" Especially when you have figures and examples to compare it to? When you can say "We matter-of-factly got less items under Jumpstaff?" When you can say "Look here at what Jumpstaff makes, now look here at what we got pre-2014?"

Also, this comes not from just my brother or me, but from the people he got these opinions from. A great many people. There's definitely people who are happy with Jumpstaff, but this is a representation of the majority opinion as far as my brother was able to survey it. This article is basically what he got from most people.

[Jae]

Feb 17, 2017 22:58:12 GMT -5 Kaljinyu said:

Hey Jae! Well we don't know that she won't ever publish it, we're wondering if maybe she's rejecting it because it needs improvements. And not because it's whiny and entitled.

But about whiny and entitled, what then is any critical article but whiny and entitled? What is any critical article but saying "I don't like this, here's something better that it should be instead?" Especially when you have figures and examples to compare it to? When you can say "We matter-of-factly got less items under Jumpstaff?" When you can say "Look here at what Jumpstaff makes, now look here at what we got pre-2014?"

Also, this comes not from just my brother or me, but from the people he got these opinions from. A great many people. There's definitely people who are happy with Jumpstaff, but this is a representation of the majority opinion as far as my brother was able to survey it. This article is basically what he got from most people.

She's rejecting it darn near as soon as she sees it. This isn't the 60s where you could physically swamp people with paper until they gave in; if he thinks she'll one day publish it because it becomes too cumbersome to hit the reject button on her computer screen then by all means he can keep submitting it. Personally, I won't be holding my breath.

I don't know how to phrase this any other way, but the tone literally is entitled because the article reads like your brother feels entitled to more - be it more items, more events, better quality, etc... Viacom ran the site differently than Jumpstart is running it; in other breaking news, water is wet.

Absolute numbers are great, but most of the time they aren't relevant, such as here. Neopets is now run by a smaller company with a far smaller staff dedicated to Neopets, so where are the more relevant relative statistics? New items per artist on staff? Events per content writer? Glitches fixed per programmer? Contests per qualified judge?

This article is whiny because it's a long rant about everything Jumpstart are doing wrong, and entitled because your brother seems to think that Jumpstart could put out quality similar to what we got when the site was thriving but they are choosing not to (until they get called out by him, the guy every player elected to speak for them, of course).

Your brother clearly doesn't respect the effort TNT is putting into creating site content, so why should they respect the effort he put into creating this by publishing it?

Yeah, a lot of people are aware of these problems and the comparison between Viacom-era Neopets and Jumpstart-era Neopets. Most of them probably agree with the general sentiment that things were better back when the site had a bigger budget. That doesn't mean they want to read it in the Neopian Times. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Neopian Times is - what it is is a fun little newspaper where you can send your stories, creative non-fiction pieces, and guides to help fellow players succeed at various areas of the site; what it is not is your brother's personal soapbox that he can freely insult anyone he wants from.

[Kaljinyu]

Odds are Jumpstaff's constant shortcoming comes from the fact that they're smaller and weaker. But the fact remains they have standards to maintain. In Part 4 my brother explains that he and probably everyone can accept it if the simple truth is "Jumpstaff can't do the things Viacom could, they just don't have the resources." But they need to acknowledge these issues candidly and upfront. Like when TNT was first shortstaffed and thus had to cut down on 'pet outfits. They didn't leave us hanging. They said outright "Hey, we're going through a transition and thus don't have as many resources, we're gonna try to put things back together when this is over." The larger issue is us being left on hold.

[Shinko]

A'ight, first off guys, let's please calm down and stop throwing acidic barbs. There is a line between constructive criticism and dismissive insults, and we're toeing that line here. Remember that all forum members are to be treated with respect, even if their viewpoint is one you personally disagree with.

Back on topic, Kaljinyu I think some of the folks here who have expressed the idea that the NT is not the outlet you are looking for are right. You are trying to submit a scathing criticism of how neopets is being run to a funny stories/game help guide. One that is being edited by a woman widely rumored to be David Lord's daughter. You are bashing your heads against a brick wall that isn't going to yield. You have valid points, absolutely. But the Neopian Times is not going to publish them. It's just not.

[Huntress]

Yeah huh people, this is a lovely Saturday morning and I'd rather not see anyone butting heads first thing after waking up. I know that everyone here is able to convey criticism without getting personal.

Twillie already basically said what I was going to say, but in response to this bit:

Feb 17, 2017 19:58:10 GMT -5 Kaljinyu said:

And there's also that. Does this put off the people looking for fun escapism? My brother is now realizing that he probably meant to be something like a Howard Beale to both the masses and Jumpstaff. In their Times. In a way that Jumpstaff couldn't sweep under the rug and pretend everything was fine. And he's now realizing that maybe the people looking for fun escapism don't want that. Same as how Country Queen might not want that.

So the question is, can my brother make a bold enough and unflappable statement, in the Times, without at the very least making the fun escapism Neopians uncomfortable? This wasn't for catharsis. This was more to say "I and we see what's going on and we're not going to ignore it. And you, reader, should see this too."

The problem with this in particular is the (apparent) assumption that the oblivious masses would think otherwise if someone was to show them the truth, far as I can tell. I, personally, am not remotely new to any of the complaints in the article. I've been an admin of this popsicle stand for years, I've seen all of those complaints and more. It's just that I don't agree. I don't at all mind the quality of art of new items, I don't hold the team to any standards of frequency of new site events; basically, I see other people's complaints and I acknowledge that they have the right to those complaints but I don't share those gripes.

Now, I have no idea how much of a minority or majority I am. But if you (well, the author; I'm sticking to 'you' for simplicity's sake) want to speak to people like me, you won't get through. I'll just go "eh, they keep the place running and have been finding their feet well enough, lemme just do my dailies for a five-minute downtime in my busy day".

For any potential changes to move ahead with the article at all, this is what I see as the options:

- Again, sort out your audience. If I understand right, the audience is basically "average Neopets player who should be made (more?) aware of the current site shortcomings", right? It's a challenging undertaking from the start, but it might be doable, if you take less of a sledgehammer approach.
- With that sorted out, I'd suggest taking the base approach that the "average Neopets player" is already aware of new items and events and what have you and does not need their eyes opened. Tricky, because the site is so varied that most people will have their own personal favorite bits they play and generally won't frequent many other aspects at all, but this is where the article can be useful to provide a kind of sweeping overview.
- It might work better as a series of articles, with each one focusing on one area. The current one kind of flops all over the place from topic to topic and the only common binding aspect to all of it is basically "this is what the current site team is doing terribly" which is the issue with tone everyone keeps pointing out. Pick an aspect (items, events, whichever) and focus solely on that.
- This was also said before, but I'd really like to see a more unbiased, statistical approach. If I was to believe that, say, the general level of items released in 2016 was below par, I'd want to see all items released that year compared to all items released during some control year and then you can present your findings without necessarily shoving a conclusion down the reader's throat at the same time. Show me all Altador Cup prizes for year X, all Altador Cup prizes for year Y, point out the apparent differences, let the reader decide whether they take anything away from it.
- (this runs in the background of me not really holding the new staff to the selfsame standards of the old staff that had over a decade to reach the level they were at by the end, buuut I never said that I was going to be convince-able xD My point is, you oughtta have better luck with the "we will gently remind you to stay on your toes a bit because you're not quite at the point to rest on laurels yet" approach, rather than the "this is how everything you've done has sucked, now what are you going to do about it huh? >:C" approach I'm seeing here.)
- All of the above still doesn't guarantee that it'll ever get published, obviously, but such is the nature of the game.

[Kaljinyu]

Alright, so what is he trying to say, and who is he trying to say it to? He thought about it some more, and he's thinking that what he wants to do with this article is bring attention to the issue. It's been said "People already know things are bad." But the necessary reactions to things being bad aren't happening. Jumpstaff isn't making things better. They're not acknowledging things below standard and saying "Yep, we're workin' on it." So is this for Jumpstaff? Well if it was for Jumpstaff, couldn't he just send a ticket? Or an e-mail? He doesn't think that works because that's been tried, and Jumpstaff can more or less accept that feedback behind the scenes and continue to chug along as though things were fine. Without "reacting" to how things are. What he wants is a public statement, a public record, that Jumpstaff has to acknowledge publicly because it's in the Times.

Like spraying graffiti on a statue of Superman after he wrecks your city. You could talk to your circle of friends and be all "Superman sucks!" and they'd be all "Yep, I agree" but that's where it would stay. You could hit the streets and tell strangers "Superman sucks!" but you'd probably just get reactions ranging from "Yeah, but what can I do about it?" to "Yeah, but I don't like hearing about that." to "Actually I think he's doing a pretty good job." You could stop Superman on the street and be all like "You suck!" but he might just say "Thank you for your feedback, I'm sorry you're having trouble with this part of my superheroism" and then next day he's back to saving kittens from trees and being all like "Aren't I great?" as if he was Krypton's gift to mankind. Saying nothing and making no acknowledgement that he wrecked your city. So instead you make a public statement that, if successful, makes it so we have to face and address the truth that Superman isn't so super. So... would that make this more for Jumpstaff? Are they the audience? He wants them to be accountable, or at the very least make it harder for them to avoid accountability.

As for unbiased statistics, doesn't the article do that? Take the items released in 2015/2016 and compare them to other years? And letting them take what they will from it? Like how he compares the Yooyu prizes and the Petpet art and yadda? Or do you mean, like, ALL items? The 1,356 items released in 2016 vs. the 1,589 items released in 2015 vs. the 2,515 items released in 2014 vs. the 3,203 items released in 2013 vs. the 3,040 items released in 2012 vs. the 3,102 items released in 2011... and so on?

As for the "we will gently remind you to stay on your toes a bit because you're not quite at the point to rest on laurels yet" approach vs. the "this is how everything you've done has sucked, now what are you going to do about it huh? >:C" approach, what's the difference between the two? What's a "nice" way to point out the lower standards of today? How does that way differ from this article?

Also, a spoonful of sugar goes a long way, making it nicer would probably be an improvement, but is this article being rejected because it's mean and maybe even unpleasant? Because my brother says that there's plenty of short stories and serieseses and comics that have, over time, on Country Queen's watch, been upsetting or even morbid. If the Times is supposed to be a fun little escapism newspaper, by my brother's lone subjective opinion there's plenty of stuff people get away with that he would not want to escape to. And on Country Queen's watch. So how softball does the Times really have to be? Wouldn't hurt to be nice, but how "necessary" is it?

[Liou]

Sorry for interrupting but I'm curious about a thing: has your brother read a lot of NT articles?

[Kaljinyu]

Feb 18, 2017 11:53:00 GMT -5 Liou said:

Sorry for interrupting but I'm curious about a thing: has your brother read a lot of NT articles?

Not as many as he used to, around the top of 2014 he kinda stopped.

[Joker]

I read the first paragraph, and I don't think there's any possible way to write this idea so that it would be accepted into the NT.

I didn't read far enough to evaluate the "tone," but I really don't think it matters in this particular case.

[The Scrac that Smiles Back]

I don't think the NT would ever publish an article with this subject.