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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2011 14:34:53 GMT -5
I just thought this was interesting since it's Banned Book week and we're writing persuasive essays in English class. (I'm not writing about banned books, but the librarian used it as an example.)
Anyway, about banned books:
1. Should certain books be banned from public libraries due to "offensive" content? Why or why not?
2. Is there any good reason for banning books, or is it merely due to differences in culture, taste, beliefs, or what is considered to be "offensive material"?
3. Ultimately, who should decide the suitability of a book for a child - that child's parents, or the government?
My stance is this: I don't think we should be banning books from being checked out just because a majority of people think it's inappropriate for children, offensive or sinful. I think it's up to each individual parent what is suitable for their child to read (everyone's family is different). It should be up to parents what books to ban from home or hands of their children. Because it all comes down to this: if we ban a book because its teaching go against a certain religion or other belief system, that is not fair to the people who don't follow that religion/belief system because they have no reason to not want to read it. If we ban a book for "inappropriate" content, that's not fair to those parents who think it is okay for their child to read that book. If we ban a book because it deals with "tough" subject matter, it's not fair to people who live to read those books.
Thoughts?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2011 14:44:11 GMT -5
Some books most definitely need to be banned from public libraries. If you want to buy them privately, you go right ahead and do that, but there's no way in Hell I'm letting my child into a library that stocks books written by pedophiles about how to stalk little boys. (Yes, this happened. In Australia.) I do think the laws for banning books need to be fairly limited - differing opinions and reasonable debate is largely what has allowed us to become so successful as a species, but there are a select few books I wouldn't want to be seeing when browsing a public library.
Good question. I'm a universalist when it comes to morals, so I believe that everyone everywhere is subjected to the same set of moral standards whether or not they know it or like it. That comes with faith in a universal God. Anyway, on that grounds I would say yes, thee are good reasons, but my reasons are vastly different from the reasons of many other people.
In an ideal society, it would be the parents, but we all know that doesn't happen. Lack of proper parenting is all too common, however I think in that circumstance, what the child is reading is the least of the governments concerns.
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Post by Nimras on Oct 4, 2011 15:57:04 GMT -5
While I think that no book should be banned from existence, I do think that public funded institutions such as public libraries and public schools should not have books that exist solely for the purpose of instruction of illegal things. In effect, banned. The public pays to support that institution, and in return the public should not be at risk of someone using that resource to turn around and harm the public. (The how to stalk someone book is a good example here.)
Grade schools do not need the Kama Sutra in their library. I would be very concerned to find that my younger nieces or nephews could check out pornographic materials. Now, materials that deal with the biology of sex and reproduction, I wouldn't have a problem with -- that I would actually encourage. But materials that exist solely for sexual arousal have no place in a school. At a University is a different question, as by that point I would expect them to know what they are getting into and are also old enough to start having sex legally.
In a prefect world, the child's parents would be on top of what their child is doing/reading. Unfortunately, the sheer amount of graffiti in my neighborhood shows that many of the local parents are remiss. Not too long ago I found the neighbor across the street's boys hidden behind my bushes reading a Playboy. They're 6 and 8 -- hardly an appropriate reading choice. They're also unsupervised pretty much all day, running about though the street. They also often skip school, as they're not even walked to the bus stop by a parent. Social services has threatened to intervene and place the kids in foster care. It's not the boys' fault that they were dealt a bad hand in the luck of parents, and if the parents refuse to raise them it becomes the government's responsibility to take up the slack. Is it a perfect solution? No. But it's better than nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2011 16:28:34 GMT -5
While I think that no book should be banned from existence, I do think that public funded institutions such as public libraries and public schools should not have books that exist solely for the purpose of instruction of illegal things. In effect, banned. The public pays to support that institution, and in return the public should not be at risk of someone using that resource to turn around and harm the public. (The how to stalk someone book is a good example here.) Grade schools do not need the Kama Sutra in their library. I would be very concerned to find that my younger nieces or nephews could check out pornographic materials. Now, materials that deal with the biology of sex and reproduction, I wouldn't have a problem with -- that I would actually encourage. But materials that exist solely for sexual arousal have no place in a school. At a University is a different question, as by that point I would expect them to know what they are getting into and are also old enough to start having sex legally. In a prefect world, the child's parents would be on top of what their child is doing/reading. Unfortunately, the sheer amount of graffiti in my neighborhood shows that many of the local parents are remiss. Not too long ago I found the neighbor across the street's boys hidden behind my bushes reading a Playboy. They're 6 and 8 -- hardly an appropriate reading choice. They're also unsupervised pretty much all day, running about though the street. They also often skip school, as they're not even walked to the bus stop by a parent. Social services has threatened to intervene and place the kids in foster care. It's not the boys' fault that they were dealt a bad hand in the luck of parents, and if the parents refuse to raise them it becomes the government's responsibility to take up the slack. Is it a perfect solution? No. But it's better than nothing. Bad parenting, I think, is a bit of a different story. It's not because someone didn't ban a book that a kid is reading it, it's because the parent wasn't responsible enough to watch their kids. I'm surprised books on how to do crime even get published. Books on sex written for adults - yes, I agree they don't belong in a school library. Like I said before, a kid's sex ed book I don't think should be banned from public, only by a parent since that's a personal family decision on when a kid's going to learn about that stuff. EDIT: On the subject of religion, I know there are kiddie Bibles and things, and that's just fine. But what about kiddie Rig Vedas or Korans or whatever? All I've seen are Christian stories edited for kids to read (but I haven't been searching everywhere either). I know this is probably a no-brainer for some of you, but my opinion is this: if you're going to have a book centering on one religion, kiddie or otherwise, no matter what religion it is, then every other religion also deserves a place.
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Post by Jo on Oct 4, 2011 17:00:31 GMT -5
I know this is probably a no-brainer for some of you, but my opinion is this: if you're going to have a book centering on one religion, kiddie or otherwise, no matter what religion it is, then every other religion also deserves a place. I actually disagree with you quite a lot on that one XD Say you have a library for a town/school which is 99% Christian, and you have room for 50 books on religion. It'd be pretty silly just to find 50 religions and get a book for each, so Christianity would have just one book, because most people are going to want to find out about Christianity probably in that particular town/school. So it makes sense to maybe have 40 books on Christianity, and the other on the other main religions. Putting in random odd-ball religions, like for some African tribe or pastafarianism or something, only makes sense if you are a large library in a diverse area, or specialise in religion. Also, I think almost every place of worship I've been to has some kind of library or book shop, so if you were a part of a religion and couldn't find say, a kiddie Qu'ran in your library, there's a good chance your local mosque would have something like that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2011 17:03:26 GMT -5
I've seen bits of the Qur'an translated for kids, but only in Arabic and never in English. It would depend on the country, I suppose, and how that country was founded (if applicable). New Zealand is a British colony so our laws and general culture are based on the Christian tradition.
I'm okay with books on any religion being readily available to kids of any age; whether they want to read about Jesus, Allah, Buddha, etc. is up to them. I don't, however, think religion should be a taught subject in the public schooling system, no matter what religion it is.
Edit: Nim, I don't know if this was what you meant to imply but finding porn in a university library would freak me out. xD
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Post by Jo on Oct 4, 2011 17:09:09 GMT -5
I'm okay with books on any religion being readily available to kids of any age; whether they want to read about Jesus, Allah, Buddha, etc. is up to them. I don't, however, think religion should be a taught subject in the public schooling system, no matter what religion it is. I don't know if this is going slightly off topic, but again, I'd disagree with you XD In England, everyone must have a religious studies class once a week until the age of 16, and I think that's a good thing. We learnt the basics about all the 6 main religions, and I think that's really important. Personally, I think teaching as if a religion is right in a school isn't a good thing, but it's important to know the basics about the main religions, so you're less likely to cause offence by accident and understand other people better. For example, because of those classes I know that Christians believe Jesus died for their sins and that they can now go to heaven because of that, that Buddhists do not believe in a God but believe in karma, that Hindus believe in essentially one God which manifests in many forms, things like that. I think basic knowledge like this is important, because when talking to people about religion or just ethical views in general, it's important to have an understanding of their faith, and to learn how to not cause offence. For example, you might not know that drawing picture of Muhammad is offensive to Muslims, or that sitting with your feet facing the holy books in a Sikh Gurdwara is considered rude. Also, in response to Dju (because I shouldn't post so much in this thread XD) I don't think Hitler's Mein Kampf (assuming that's what you're talking about) should be banned. If you're studying the Holocaust, that book is a very valuable source of information, and I doubt anyone would read it and become anti-semitic simply due to that book- there would have to be other factors in place also.
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Post by Dju on Oct 4, 2011 17:11:20 GMT -5
Banned? Definitely, some stuff shouldn't be published in the first place. Not only because it's offensive, but can cause some serious damage to people's brain, like Hitler's book that I forgot the name, but is 100% racist. >_>
Seriously, some teenagers see no sense in their lives and decide that their mission is to protect their nation by murdering innocent people, just because someone wrote they should.
Edit:
Even though parents think they can select the books for their child, they have already been previously selected by the government, you can't just hand a kid a book like "Hate Brunettes" or "Blonds suck", sometimes parents aren't as responsible as they should be or not even sane enough, so the government must play a part on people's education. :I
Edit 2: (ya I know, can't hold my tongue XD)
On the religious side, I think school shouldn't taught someone what to believe. Just comment and let people decide it by themselves, my school does that and we never had belief conflicts before, at least not in school. It's a really interesting system!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2011 17:21:10 GMT -5
Banned? Definitely, some stuff shouldn't be published in the first place. Not only because it's offensive, but can cause some serious damage to people's brain, like Hitler's book that I forgot the name, but is 100% racist. >_> Seriously, some teenagers see no sense in their lives and decide that their mission is to protect their nation by murdering innocent people, just because someone wrote they should. I really didn't even know that stuff existed until you brought it up. What I meant by "offensive" were fiction books where a character deals with tough problems real life people face, like mental illness or alcoholism or something like that, or a book about the Civil War/Civil Rights era, where the racism of the time isn't sugarcoated. That, to me, is not a racist book (i.e. one that encourages racism). It's a book about characters struggling with racism.
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Post by Dju on Oct 4, 2011 17:24:14 GMT -5
Banned? Definitely, some stuff shouldn't be published in the first place. Not only because it's offensive, but can cause some serious damage to people's brain, like Hitler's book that I forgot the name, but is 100% racist. >_> Seriously, some teenagers see no sense in their lives and decide that their mission is to protect their nation by murdering innocent people, just because someone wrote they should. I really didn't even know that stuff existed until you brought it up. What I meant by "offensive" were fiction books where a character deals with tough problems real life people face, like mental illness or alcoholism or something like that, or a book about the Civil War/Civil Rights era, where the racism of the time isn't sugarcoated. That, to me, is not a racist book (i.e. one that encourages racism). It's a book about characters struggling with racism. Hitler's book is really, really horrible. It talks about races, about extermination, it's...unhumane. My teacher said this book has such a terrible reputation I even feel watched talking about it. I'm not sure exactly what it talks about, but my History teacher said it's so wrong. In every way. O___O He wrote it in prison, putting all his nazism thoughts there. Disguting. I totally believe this book should be BURNED, all of the copies. Every single one. >.< Oh please don't arrest me, I'm just telling my friends how racism is awful and how something written by Hitler can be dangerous and incredibly offensive!
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Post by selmette on Oct 4, 2011 17:34:51 GMT -5
as usual it all comes down to the definition of the word in question; offensive. when people want a children's book taken from the shelves it is most commonly for one of two reasons; 1. the book shows a different perspective on a controversial topic (for example, if i were christian, i would be trying my best to bring my children up as christians as well, and i almost definitely would not allow them to read something that might cause them to question their faith.) 2. they find the book inappropriate for the intended age group or otherwise psychologically disturbing. while i understand why people would use this logic to classify a book as offensive, i still don't think that serves as justification for banning it from public libraries entirely. i'm discussing children's books exclusively because once you are an adult it starts to become much less of an issue. the only instance i can think of at the moment where it would be reasonable for a book to be banned is when their content is illegal, like books written by pedophiles about how to stalk little boys XDD i honestly think that is kind of a given though. i'm reluctant to say much concerning cultural differences because i haven't had much exposure to other cultures. what i will say though is that, while i am against the idea of sex tips books and the like, i can't think of a way they would do any serious harm to our society. banned from children's libraries? absolutely. public libraries? not so much. the parents should decide the suitability of a book for their child. the purpose of the government is not to raise children. government involvement is only necessary when laws are being broken; i don't think it is their place to take steps to prevent illegal things from being done.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2011 17:37:27 GMT -5
I'm okay with books on any religion being readily available to kids of any age; whether they want to read about Jesus, Allah, Buddha, etc. is up to them. I don't, however, think religion should be a taught subject in the public schooling system, no matter what religion it is. I don't know if this is going slightly off topic, but again, I'd disagree with you XD In England, everyone must have a religious studies class once a week until the age of 16, and I think that's a good thing. We learnt the basics about all the 6 main religions, and I think that's really important. Personally, I think teaching as if a religion is right in a school isn't a good thing, but it's important to know the basics about the main religions, so you're less likely to cause offence by accident and understand other people better. For example, because of those classes I know that Christians believe Jesus died for their sins and that they can now go to heaven because of that, that Buddhists do not believe in a God but believe in karma, that Hindus believe in essentially one God which manifests in many forms, things like that. I think basic knowledge like this is important, because when talking to people about religion or just ethical views in general, it's important to have an understanding of their faith, and to learn how to not cause offence. For example, you might not know that drawing picture of Muhammad is offensive to Muslims, or that sitting with your feet facing the holy books in a Sikh Gurdwara is considered rude. Also, in response to Dju (because I shouldn't post so much in this thread XD) I don't think Hitler's Mein Kampf (assuming that's what you're talking about) should be banned. If you're studying the Holocaust, that book is a very valuable source of information, and I doubt anyone would read it and become anti-semitic simply due to that book- there would have to be other factors in place also. I totally agree with you. xD In New Zealand Religious Studies as an unbiased subject isn't taught until tertiary, but religion as a biased subject, i.e. "this religion is right and this is why" sometimes is. I was speaking out against the latter, though the former is a fantastic idea. =3 I took religious studies papers last year and despite the fact that my lecturer was alarmingly anti-Christian for a guy who was meant to be unbiased, it was pretty interesting and kinda fun. x3 From what I've heard, Mein Kampf is not a book instructing the world to do terrible things. Correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't read it myself, and although it is certainly a terrible way to view the world by a terrible man, as Jo said it has its own value. There's still some Nazi propaganda floating around and as hideous as it is, it is also fascinating and a lesson from history, and a way to remember and lots of other things, too. The Jewish society on campus did this Holocaust remembrance thing. There were an estimated 4 million Jews slaughtered, but they wanted everyone to realize that it wasn't 4 million nameless, faceless people, but 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 ... etc. individuals with hopes, dreams, fears, loves, hobbies, friends, family, spouses, children, parents ...
The way they did this was to make profiles of each individual. There was a name, a photo, family information and basically as much information as they could gather, and one profile was handed to every student who walked past. The impact of this campaign was astounding. There was also a service where nothing else happened except that the names of the dead were read out one by one.
I believe it was Joseph Stalin who said that "one death is a tragedy, but one million is a statistic." In many cases this rings true, because the numbers are just so huge and insurmountable. The Jewish society did an amazing job at opening our eyes to the weight of the thing which we'd passed over so easily in class for several years.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2011 17:48:45 GMT -5
I really didn't even know that stuff existed until you brought it up. What I meant by "offensive" were fiction books where a character deals with tough problems real life people face, like mental illness or alcoholism or something like that, or a book about the Civil War/Civil Rights era, where the racism of the time isn't sugarcoated. That, to me, is not a racist book (i.e. one that encourages racism). It's a book about characters struggling with racism. Hitler's book is really, really horrible. It talks about races, about extermination, it's...unhumane. My teacher said this book has such a terrible reputation I even feel watched talking about it. I'm not sure exactly what it talks about, but my History teacher said it's so wrong. In every way. O___O He wrote it in prison, putting all his nazism thoughts there. Disguting. I totally believe this book should be BURNED, all of the copies. Every single one. >.< Oh please don't arrest me, I'm just telling my friends how racism is awful and how something written by Hitler can be dangerous and incredibly offensive!I wasn't talking about Hitler's book, Dju. I was saying I wasn't talking about Hitler's book. A book trying to convince one to be racist isn't the same as a book where a character suffers racism and that is clearly seen as a wrong thing.
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Post by Jo on Oct 4, 2011 17:50:03 GMT -5
I really didn't even know that stuff existed until you brought it up. What I meant by "offensive" were fiction books where a character deals with tough problems real life people face, like mental illness or alcoholism or something like that, or a book about the Civil War/Civil Rights era, where the racism of the time isn't sugarcoated. That, to me, is not a racist book (i.e. one that encourages racism). It's a book about characters struggling with racism. Hitler's book is really, really horrible. It talks about races, about extermination, it's...unhumane. My teacher said this book has such a terrible reputation I even feel watched talking about it. I'm not sure exactly what it talks about, but my History teacher said it's so wrong. In every way. O___O He wrote it in prison, putting all his nazism thoughts there. Disguting. I totally believe this book should be BURNED, all of the copies. Every single one. >.< Oh please don't arrest me, I'm just telling my friends how racism is awful and how something written by Hitler can be dangerous and incredibly offensive!If we burn all the copies of Mein Kampf, we destroy an extremely valuable record of the causes of the Holocaust. I think it's really important that people know about the Holocaust as a way of opening up peoples' eyes to the injustice humans are capable of, and Mein Kampf is a part of that. I think the way it is dangerous is how it is used. If this book is given to children and they are told "this book contains looks of good ideas, you should read it to know about how Jews are inferior to everyone!" obviously that's terrible. But that child will probably be taught these views anyway, with or without the book. But I think almost everyone is aware of Mein Kampf and the horrible things Hitler did, and so I can't really see someone stumbling across it, picking it up and thinking "hey, Hitler sounds like a cool guy, he was probably right that the Jews were the cause of Germany's economic problems in the 1930s!" Plus the book is terribly written. Most of it is rambles that are all over the place, and unless you had studied German history of the time, you probably wouldn't understand it. If we're talking about the 4-6million Jews who died, let's not forget the 5-7 million others, who died for being gypsies, homosexuals, disabled, communists, or even just for trying to help the persecuted. The holocaust wasn't just a Jewish tragedy, it was a human one.
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Post by Dju on Oct 4, 2011 17:55:13 GMT -5
From what I've heard, Mein Kampf is not a book instructing the world to do terrible things. Correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't read it myself, and although it is certainly a terrible way to view the world by a terrible man, as Jo said it has its own value. There's still some Nazi propaganda floating around and as hideous as it is, it is also fascinating and a lesson from history, and a way to remember and lots of other things, too. Ooh, that was the name! It's hard to remember... XD Yes, that is exactly why the book was banished! There is a lot of people that still follow nazism, that why the grave from a famous nazist (That I can't remember as well) was removed, there were too many visitors and admirers coming from everywhere to leave him flowers and pictures and letters and...ungh. X__x I am glad Mein Kampf was banished, or else it could've attracted a lot more fans to it...even though the Second World War left us many good lessons about humanity, let's just hope we already learned it and won't let it happen again, yay new generation of peace, love and good use of global communication! ^-^ EDIT: I wasn't talking about Hitler's book, Dju. I was saying I wasn't talking about Hitler's book. A book trying to convince one to be racist isn't the same as a book where a character suffers racism and that is clearly seen as a wrong thing. Oh, right! ^-^ I just thought we were talking about Banned books and the reasons they were banished for, not what kid's should read or not. Sorry 'bout that. ^_^;
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