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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2012 22:36:37 GMT -5
"Don't like heroics"? That gives off the wrong impression. All you would have to do would be look at the multitude of story threads made by (former) ST members to disprove that claim.
If you want to talk about differences, then talk about differences. But saying STers "don't like heroics" is terribly misleading.
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May I make an observation?
Changing the name won't change the game. There would probably be the exact same people showing up, at the exact same frequency as before. Most people go to the HT as it is. Who doesn't who is still an active member? I can't think of anyone.
Again, statistically speaking, sole-thread makes the most sense. I just don't think we can expect anything to change on a social level, and I don't think activity would change much, if at all.
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Post by Omni on Dec 2, 2012 0:44:31 GMT -5
...Most people go to the HT as it is. Who doesn't who is still an active member? I can't think of anyone. Again, statistically speaking, sole-thread makes the most sense... This is basically what I was going to say. I have other reasons for wanting just one thread, but really, at this point, there's no real reason to keep them separate. I think social things have moved into a separate issue, or maybe didn't really change with the split. We don't really have much to lose by joining together, or to gain by staying apart. There would still be the social issues, yes, but I think they should be dealt with separately; one step at a time. Though on a more emotional level, it would be nice to just have one big thread for the holidays. Anyway, seems like we've pretty well got a running 'yes.' Time to make the thread?
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Drew without account
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Post by Drew without account on Dec 3, 2012 17:24:10 GMT -5
I am not a member of this forum anymore, and have no need to be concerned about this issue. I did mention to a few people privately, though, that if I had a post to make that I thought I was important then I'd post it as a guest. It looks like we've gone and made our new board already. That's good. I was wondering when it was going to happen, honestly. Torkie has a point. And, of course, we will get more page numbers if we just reattach the two Taco threads. The amount of time the Tacos spent separate also gave time to let people cool off. That doesn't mean the issue that caused this little split is gone, however. The "fighting vs no fighting" issue was legitimate and kept some characters from wanting to appear. And as worried as I was about saying this as an active Tacoer, I'll say it now anyway: the main issue with all Tacoers is- and has always been- that we hold grudges against one another and dislike it when things aren't going the way we want them to. Scrac frequents the HT. She stated before that she preferred the HT and did not like visiting the ST. Earlier, she said that the Soft Tacoers didn't like heroics and would prefer to RP "ordinary people with ordinary lives". Do some people like to RP people with lives that aren't always super extraordinary? Of course. Making a statement that all former STers liked to, though, is more of an attack than anything. I've seen this for the ST side against the HT side, too. I'm not calling anyone else out, especially not on comments that are months old rather than a few days old. I used to frequent a Skype group that wasn't the official NTWF Skype group, but included a lot of Tacoers who frequented the ST side. Before the Tacos split, there would be talk of being angry because people have been in a huge RP for days at the Taco, or that there wasn't fighting going on but there was a bunch of srsface crap going on that didn't feel Taco-like at all. I remember that, before the Taco split happened, a few were talking about staying on one side and not going to the other. Not because they abhorred the idea of fighting or not fighting, but because of the people they knew would stay on the side opposite theirs. Regarding the first thing that I brought up (about a thing going on for days- which led to more little fights because "Nobody was there anyway, don't complain because we're giving the Taco activity")... It doesn't matter if the Taco is dead and "needs activity". A massive ongoing interaction between just two people and their characters should be moved to PM or another thread, because it's just preventing new people from coming in. I see we have a new Taco already. That's great, and does make me happy even after all I've said. I just know, though, that the animosity between some Tacoers wasn't resolved. Here's what I suggest for the future, when the same issues and unhappiness will likely crop up. A lot of these were brought up on the Open Discussion, but: - Don't "dominate" the Taco. I used to talk with Killix a lot about Phoenix Wright on the 'Bloids, and since nobody else played it at the time, all other conversation was drowned out. Someone said "Drew and Killix are dominating the 'Bloids again", and I guess that's why I named it this. If just two people are having an extended interaction, or are the only two doing anything for multiple days at a time, there's no actual reason why you can't move your interactions to another thread or PM. And this ties in with the next thing:
- Don't complain if you get a request to move. I seriously can't stress enough about how much "so-and-so is a poo-poo head" there was going on behind the scenes because some people were asked to move their long, extensive RP. If you want people to move their RP, please do it politely. If that's done, there's no reason to be offended when you yourself are asked to move your RP. You're not in trouble. The people asking you to move aren't oppressive, horrible, racist jerks. They're Tacoers who want to write things also.
- Be open about what the issue is. I've used the example of others getting upset over a request to move a RP before. Well, I can't recall anyone openly going to a person who upset them and saying "Hey, I was upset because so-and-so" and then trying to work it out in a mature way. I'm not blaming everyone else, either. I'm guilty of this too, and I know that I ended up being unreasonably upset later and taking it out passive-aggressively. We Tacoers didn't get anything done until the Mods made the Open Discussion and told us to just open up. I also recall some of us- me included, too- trying to avoid starting the discussion about the Truce because we thought we couldn't work anything out. I'll just say that the longer you ignore a pile of poo on the floor, the smellier it gets.
- Be open about other characters and RPing styles/ideas. Remember how I said that I heard complaints that the Taco wasn't Taco-like anymore? Because there were too many [robots/aliens/cats/potato farmers/writers/etc]? Or because [alien invasions/impromptu dance parties/spin-the-bottle games/etc] kept happening too often? Well, how do you know if it's "Taco-like" in the first place? I don't know either. There's only been this one Taco on this one forum. I know that we have a very wide range of characters of different species from different planets and such. And I know that maybe one may hate the concept of a group of characters, or think another group of characters are too crude, or something. But we can't just solve that by making two Taco threads and hoping those bad people will kindly stay away. This ties in to the "be open about an issue" thing, because if a group of characters is actually upsetting others, bring it up to the writer(s) of them. And in the meantime, try befriending the characters you're wary about first. Maybe they aren't as bad as you thought.
- Remember that we're all real people here. Yeah, first and foremost we're magical wizards and ambassadors and faeries and pirates. But also, as easy as it is to forget in an environment as captivating and immersive as the Taco, we're all real people sitting behind computer screens. Yes, even Mr. Poopy Buttface who you don't like and called your character 'donkey breath' is a real person with real feelings. When these problems with one another aren't brought up and we just let the anger build up and let it trickle out passive-aggressively? Someone does have their feelings hurt. We're all people who like to write who came here for a good RP. We're not that different.
I'm not trying to set down rules or anything like that. These are purely suggestions. If even one person sees this and thinks "Hm, that lad might have a point. Back to destroying moon communists!" then I feel that's good enough. So, thanks for reading.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2012 18:12:47 GMT -5
Good, good, we needed this kind of discussion! As I said, gluing the threads together would be best served by having such a discussion. I hope no one is under the illusion that everything has been fixed, because I don't think anything has changed.
I've heard an accusation—repeatedly, I won't say who from—that the split happened not over style differences or not liking fighting, but because some people did not like other people.
This is an oversimplification of the matter and was not presented as nicely to me as I put it, but it does make a point: there is a lot of discontent and resentment behind the scenes.
The problem is that such things are not simple to fix. There is a certain policy for civility (largely enforced by mods, though they aren't the only ones to call people out who argue) that has resulted in the suppression of discontent. As a result, the will to address matters directly has seriously declined and been stunted.
Perhaps I sound overly irritated, but all the misinformation does make me cross.
I can say that I personally do not intend to return, because so far this stitching the threads together has not actually -changed- anything, so I have no reason to come back. It's a step in the right direction, but I hope people understand what is really going on, and are not expecting something that simply is not there.
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Post by Dan on Dec 3, 2012 18:52:16 GMT -5
Very well said, Drew. I think those suggestions would serve the group quite well, and I would encourage everyone to consider them seriously. They're not revolutionary ideas, but they're crucial to the well-being of any group of people, especially those as passionate for their characters as the group who frequent the Taco.
And just to address one other point: the policy of civility as Torkie puts it isn't intended to nor does it require, a suppression of discontent. This policy is intended, as its name implies, to maintain a calm atmosphere where everyone can feel comfortable. There are myriad ways to address a problem you have with another person in a way that controls your emotions and doesn't result in name calling, aggravation, or anger -- many of them described right there in Drew's post.
The tactics that have often been used in the Taco to avoid or passive-aggressively deal with frustrations have never been acceptable and demonstrate a reluctance to communicate with others when one is unhappy. You guys have made strides in improving these lines of communication over the years with threads like this, but until you can let go of the passive-aggression, the sniping to each other in private chats and PMs, and especially outright avoidance, nothing will go away.
The only way this will be resolved is calmly, clearly, and patiently stating what you want, what others are doing to get in the way of those desires, and how you can compromise to see a Taco that everyone can be satisfied with.
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Post by PFA on Dec 3, 2012 18:59:07 GMT -5
First off, I pretty much agree with the points that have been made so far. Though while I'm thinking about it, I think there's been a little confusion over what Scrac meant by "heroics"? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess it's a thing worth mentioning either way.
A thing I've noticed happen sometimes is that, when a fight breaks out between characters, other characters will suddenly jump in, yell at them, and tell them to break it up. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but when the character suddenly getting involved shows up out of nowhere, and the character immediately leaves once the fight breaks up, that tends to be a bit... off-putting. Like, intended or not, it feels like this person is specifically jumping out just to chew you out for daring to get into a fight, even (or perhaps moreso) if the parties who initiated the fight were having fun with it.
I'm guessing that's what you were referring to, Scrac?
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Post by The Scrac that Smiles Back on Dec 3, 2012 22:52:38 GMT -5
First off, I pretty much agree with the points that have been made so far. Though while I'm thinking about it, I think there's been a little confusion over what Scrac meant by "heroics"? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess it's a thing worth mentioning either way. A thing I've noticed happen sometimes is that, when a fight breaks out between characters, other characters will suddenly jump in, yell at them, and tell them to break it up. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but when the character suddenly getting involved shows up out of nowhere, and the character immediately leaves once the fight breaks up, that tends to be a bit... off-putting. Like, intended or not, it feels like this person is specifically jumping out just to chew you out for daring to get into a fight, even (or perhaps moreso) if the parties who initiated the fight were having fun with it. I'm guessing that's what you were referring to, Scrac? Quite right. However, I was also making an observation about the type of character Soft Taco writers are best known for. That is, neutral. And dark. There are very few truly heroic individuals found among the Soft Taco characters; one that comes to mind is stupid and just played for laughs. And there is nothing wrong with that, because hero-type characters that will go to the ends of the earth to make sure their idea of justice is served can get extremely annoying.
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Post by The Scrac that Smiles Back on Dec 4, 2012 1:54:30 GMT -5
And as worried as I was about saying this as an active Tacoer, I'll say it now anyway: the main issue with all Tacoers is- and has always been- that we hold grudges against one another and dislike it when things aren't going the way we want them to. It has not always been grudges for some of us. Scrac frequents the HT. She stated before that she preferred the HT and did not like visiting the ST. Earlier, she said that the Soft Tacoers didn't like heroics and would prefer to RP "ordinary people with ordinary lives". Do some people like to RP people with lives that aren't always super extraordinary? Of course. Making a statement that all former STers liked to, though, is more of an attack than anything. See above post for clarification. I've seen this for the ST side against the HT side, too. I'm not calling anyone else out, especially not on comments that are months old rather than a few days old. I used to frequent a Skype group that wasn't the official NTWF Skype group, but included a lot of Tacoers who frequented the ST side. Before the Tacos split, there would be talk of being angry because people have been in a huge RP for days at the Taco, or that there wasn't fighting going on but there was a bunch of srsface crap going on that didn't feel Taco-like at all. That's very aggravating. Why is seriousness only a problem when certain people do it? I never heard a complaint against the various murders and dark mental breakdowns that occurred on the Taco, and never lodged one either. I remember that, before the Taco split happened, a few were talking about staying on one side and not going to the other. Not because they abhorred the idea of fighting or not fighting, but because of the people they knew would stay on the side opposite theirs. Indeed. Regarding the first thing that I brought up (about a thing going on for days- which led to more little fights because "Nobody was there anyway, don't complain because we're giving the Taco activity")... It doesn't matter if the Taco is dead and "needs activity". A massive ongoing interaction between just two people and their characters should be moved to PM or another thread, because it's just preventing new people from coming in. and the Hard Tacoers need to do a better job of moving fights to the fight boards. Sometimes that critical step gets a little ignored because we want to give others opportunity to join in. We need to realize that they don't want to. A lot of these were brought up on the Open Discussion, but: - Don't "dominate" the Taco. I used to talk with Killix a lot about Phoenix Wright on the 'Bloids, and since nobody else played it at the time, all other conversation was drowned out. Someone said "Drew and Killix are dominating the 'Bloids again", and I guess that's why I named it this. If just two people are having an extended interaction, or are the only two doing anything for multiple days at a time, there's no actual reason why you can't move your interactions to another thread or PM. And this ties in with the next thing:
- Don't complain if you get a request to move. I seriously can't stress enough about how much "so-and-so is a poo-poo head" there was going on behind the scenes because some people were asked to move their long, extensive RP. If you want people to move their RP, please do it politely. If that's done, there's no reason to be offended when you yourself are asked to move your RP. You're not in trouble. The people asking you to move aren't oppressive, horrible, racist jerks. They're Tacoers who want to write things also.
- Be open about what the issue is. I've used the example of others getting upset over a request to move a RP before. Well, I can't recall anyone openly going to a person who upset them and saying "Hey, I was upset because so-and-so" and then trying to work it out in a mature way. I'm not blaming everyone else, either. I'm guilty of this too, and I know that I ended up being unreasonably upset later and taking it out passive-aggressively. We Tacoers didn't get anything done until the Mods made the Open Discussion and told us to just open up. I also recall some of us- me included, too- trying to avoid starting the discussion about the Truce because we thought we couldn't work anything out. I'll just say that the longer you ignore a pile of poo on the floor, the smellier it gets.
- Be open about other characters and RPing styles/ideas. Remember how I said that I heard complaints that the Taco wasn't Taco-like anymore? Because there were too many [robots/aliens/cats/potato farmers/writers/etc]? Or because [alien invasions/impromptu dance parties/spin-the-bottle games/etc] kept happening too often? Well, how do you know if it's "Taco-like" in the first place? I don't know either. There's only been this one Taco on this one forum. I know that we have a very wide range of characters of different species from different planets and such. And I know that maybe one may hate the concept of a group of characters, or think another group of characters are too crude, or something. But we can't just solve that by making two Taco threads and hoping those bad people will kindly stay away. This ties in to the "be open about an issue" thing, because if a group of characters is actually upsetting others, bring it up to the writer(s) of them. And in the meantime, try befriending the characters you're wary about first. Maybe they aren't as bad as you thought.
- Remember that we're all real people here. Yeah, first and foremost we're magical wizards and ambassadors and faeries and pirates. But also, as easy as it is to forget in an environment as captivating and immersive as the Taco, we're all real people sitting behind computer screens. Yes, even Mr. Poopy Buttface who you don't like and called your character 'donkey breath' is a real person with real feelings. When these problems with one another aren't brought up and we just let the anger build up and let it trickle out passive-aggressively? Someone does have their feelings hurt. We're all people who like to write who came here for a good RP. We're not that different.
These are all good suggestions. I have a few of my own to add. - Don't get irritated at others for being more or less active then you. Everyone has different schedules and priorities. On that note, research before you label someone a board hog. What may look like a long interaction to those not really following along may actually be a series of short interactions. Usually with hours, if not days between them.
- If there is an interaction going on on the board, try to join in. If it was intended to be exclusive it wouldn't/shouldn't be there.
- PM to get others to move their interactions. Don't post on the board angrily demanding they go away. The rp is either something they forgot to move or something they want others to join in on.
and also I'm repeating this one by Drew, because it is worth getting posted a few times: - Be open about other characters and RPing styles/ideas. Remember how I said that I heard complaints that the Taco wasn't Taco-like anymore? Because there were too many [robots/aliens/cats/potato farmers/writers/etc]? Or because [alien invasions/impromptu dance parties/spin-the-bottle games/etc] kept happening too often? Well, how do you know if it's "Taco-like" in the first place? I don't know either. There's only been this one Taco on this one forum. I know that we have a very wide range of characters of different species from different planets and such. And I know that maybe one may hate the concept of a group of characters, or think another group of characters are too crude, or something. But we can't just solve that by making two Taco threads and hoping those bad people will kindly stay away. This ties in to the "be open about an issue" thing, because if a group of characters is actually upsetting others, bring it up to the writer(s) of them. And in the meantime, try befriending the characters you're wary about first. Maybe they aren't as bad as you thought.
which leads to - When someone tries to interact with you who normally doesn't, don't ignore or shut them out. Even if your best buddy in the whole wide world just logged on.
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Post by Omni on Dec 4, 2012 3:34:54 GMT -5
I'm in agreement with Scrac's above post. I would, however, like to give personal emphasis on the intent to include. Oftentimes, when I'm one of the few participants in an extended conversation, I'm actually hoping for more people to come to the board. I guess sometimes my intent isn't so much to 'give activity' as 'try to give a more appealing environment for people to come into.'
Anyway, I was thinking, maybe sometimes our problem isn't so much whether or not we communicate so much as what we communicate. I was taught fairly recently that often, if you're emotionally charged when you say something, people won't focus so much on the content of the message as the emotion behind it. It might seem like you're just trying to get your case across, but really, you're just casting yourself in a negative light. Speaking from experience, adding negative emotion doesn't help; you're more likely to come across as offensive somehow.
What I'd like to suggest is this: Basically, if you're feeling charged with a negative emotion - particularly anger - don't post. Instead, it's better to walk away for awhile, allow yourself (and the other party) some time to cool down, think about your response, and post when you're more calm. It's a lot easier to give a rational response, and it gives everyone less reason to continue with negative emotion. Speaking from recent experience, it helps. You'll want to respond at some point, of course, but if you're immediately upset, don't respond right away. If you're still upset after some time... maybe have someone act as a calm proxy?
Admittedly, this is somewhat harder in group conversations than private ones. Also speaking from experience, it's very possible for a conversation to get away from you and even reach a conclusion while you're still working on your input, particularly if it's moving fast enough. Still, instead of giving a destructive presence, it might be better to give no presence at all. At the very least, it might be better to wait until you're just a little annoyed, rather than fuming.
Another thing I was told to consider is whether or not what I want to say is truly necessary: Would it really be helpful to say something? Is it even my place to say such a thing? I think we're all familiar with the saying about roads paved with good intentions.
It can be difficult to hone in on what exactly to do, yes. But I've already found it helpful to try and figure out when clearly not to say something. We seem to have a history of emotionally-charged... debates. It might be helpful if we tried to remove some of the negative emotion.
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Post by Andrea on Jan 25, 2013 20:03:20 GMT -5
Well, this has been already discussed in the current Taco thread, but we're still using December's Taco. The reason is that we thought the IC Chat threads haven't really been active enough to warrant monthly threads.
Should we switch to bimonthly threads, or make a new thread once we hit 200 pages or so, or?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2013 20:05:38 GMT -5
I think bimonthly would be easier to keep track of.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2013 20:14:28 GMT -5
Bimonthly's good with me.
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Post by Gelquie on Jan 25, 2013 20:15:33 GMT -5
I prefer the bimonthly threads, since I now have a habit of keeping track of things by month, and that generally seems easier anyway.
If we happen to get a lot of pages on one thread at the end of the month (say, 600 pages), we could always call that good and start a new one while assuming the next one is also bimonthly.
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Post by PFA on Jan 25, 2013 21:23:34 GMT -5
Anything is fine with me, really. XD Bimonthly will work.
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Post by Omni on Jan 25, 2013 22:34:26 GMT -5
I prefer bimonthly.
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