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Post by Enn on Jul 4, 2010 13:10:23 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't know many people who can't appreciate that someone of the same sex is attractive- not necessarily wanting to jump their bones, but you know, most women can appreciate beauty in other women, I'm sure most men will admit (maybe not OUT LOUD) that certain guys are attractive... and in both of those cases, not be in the least bit interested in making out with them. xD;; To be honest it seems stranger to be utterly unable to appreciate the appearance of someone your same sex, whatsoever, if you're straight. I don't know that I've ever met anyone like that.
I've totally met people who absolutely refuse and hate gay 'shipping' though. xD;;
It's nice to see you trying to be more open, Anonymous, than your family! That's always great, really. :3 Although that last sentence- 'lifestyles you chose'- that stands out to me. I dunno if others will agree, but the term 'lifestyle choice' gets used a lot to me... and that's one point that's almost always wrong, that it's a choice.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2010 22:51:56 GMT -5
Hmm, that scale is very interesting, though I have to ask ... I appreciate personality, and to some extent beauty, in everyone, but mostly personality, but I am only sexually attracted to one and he's very glad of that. xD Shade said she is attracted to personality so does sexual attraction play a part in that? [...] Oh and Shade, when you say you can "love" people online, what sort of love are you talking about? I'd say I love you because of your personality, but I don't love you as anything but a friend. <3 It's... an interesting topic, to me, because I still haven't figured it out myself. Start with this. I can love anyone so long as I understand them. That's the basic kind of love; a level that spreads throughout all humanity if I'm in the right sort of mood. It's an interesting effect, but not what you're asking about. (Though really, this is as far as it goes for most people. The more I understand someone, the more deeply I can love them.) What does it take for me to be attracted to someone? I need to Love them. That... I can't explain it, really. It's something like the understanding-love, because it's based off it, but that's not the whole of it. I love for personality and for who someone is. Physical attraction helps, but personality and confidence make someone beautiful. None of my friends at this camp whose appearance I like are classically beautiful. None of them. The one who comes closest, I had a crush on at one point but I never particularly liked his facial structure and looks. So, appearance only matters insofar as it's something striking, or unique, or perfectly suited to the person. I can't really tell. Yes, from only knowing someone online I can want someone, even without seeing a picture of them. How far does that go? I live online, I sometimes think. I'm a writer; I write, and the words are magic. Attraction and love go as far as they go. That can be quite far, or that can be nowhere, but it still exists in a state of uncertainty, because seeing people and hearing them and feeling them really is a part of attraction for me; the people I can't help but follow around, the friends who are lovers (to quote a lovely quote whose author I can't remember at the moment. Pearl something?) and who I trust completely. This isn't really an answer so much as a big 'I don't know', but I can't really explain more than that right now. Maybe, given full sleep and more time to think, I would. But I don't know. xD Hmm ... no you've answered enough for me to get a grasp on it, though I do get that you don't really know how it works. Heck, who does? xD From what you've said I'm gleaning that you love a lot of people* that you have the potential to be attracted to as well, if you got to understand them. *Don't take this literally. What I mean is, I love one person and one person only, romantically, but I love a lot of people as friends and I love them for their personality just like you, but even if I knew everything about them, I wouldn't be physically attracted to them. Its actually something in my personal psychology that I guess is similar to you. Attraction follows love, and because I only love one, I am only attracted to one. Scar can be 100% sure of my utter fidelity because of it, not that he would ever have a reason to doubt it. I ... actually don't know where I'm going with this. I guess I'm very curious since your sexuality, for lack of a better word, is unique and I love to try and understand unique things. ^_^ Erm, I hope I haven't offended you. ^^;
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Post by Fj0rd on Jul 5, 2010 0:06:42 GMT -5
Hmm, that scale is very interesting, though I have to ask ... I appreciate personality, and to some extent beauty, in everyone, but mostly personality, but I am only sexually attracted to one and he's very glad of that. xD Shade said she is attracted to personality so does sexual attraction play a part in that? [...] Oh and Shade, when you say you can "love" people online, what sort of love are you talking about? I'd say I love you because of your personality, but I don't love you as anything but a friend. <3 It's... an interesting topic, to me, because I still haven't figured it out myself. Start with this. I can love anyone so long as I understand them. That's the basic kind of love; a level that spreads throughout all humanity if I'm in the right sort of mood. It's an interesting effect, but not what you're asking about. (Though really, this is as far as it goes for most people. The more I understand someone, the more deeply I can love them.) What does it take for me to be attracted to someone? I need to Love them. That... I can't explain it, really. It's something like the understanding-love, because it's based off it, but that's not the whole of it. I love for personality and for who someone is. Physical attraction helps, but personality and confidence make someone beautiful. None of my friends at this camp whose appearance I like are classically beautiful. None of them. The one who comes closest, I had a crush on at one point but I never particularly liked his facial structure and looks. So, appearance only matters insofar as it's something striking, or unique, or perfectly suited to the person. I can't really tell. Yes, from only knowing someone online I can want someone, even without seeing a picture of them. How far does that go? I live online, I sometimes think. I'm a writer; I write, and the words are magic. Attraction and love go as far as they go. That can be quite far, or that can be nowhere, but it still exists in a state of uncertainty, because seeing people and hearing them and feeling them really is a part of attraction for me; the people I can't help but follow around, the friends who are lovers (to quote a lovely quote whose author I can't remember at the moment. Pearl something?) and who I trust completely. This isn't really an answer so much as a big 'I don't know', but I can't really explain more than that right now. Maybe, given full sleep and more time to think, I would. But I don't know. xD Yeeees. So much this. Personality and confidence light people up from inside like lanterns. I've always been looking for the right words for that, and those get pretty close to what I've been thinking of. Or at least, in part how that affects physical things--how they carry themselves, how their expressions change, stuff like that, has a ton to do with personality and confidence, and that's what catches me, even on first glance. (Which is part of why I have a hard time getting much from pictures; even video sometimes fails to capture that essential them-ness.)
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Post by Grey on Jul 5, 2010 0:13:27 GMT -5
Ooo, shiny. I would like to join, and feel free to PM me as well. ^_^
I'm... pansexual, I guess, although part of that is probably the fact that my perceptions of gender are kind of "screwed up" in relation to the norms. It's difficult for me to see just two genders, rather than three or four or more - there are just too many fuzzy lines for there to be only two genders. It's like looking at a scale of grey from black to white and trying to sort each shade of grey in between into either "black" or "white" - it doesn't work. There are too many placements that could go in either or that seem to be their own thing entirely, and all of the shades of grey draw from both black and white - not one exclusively. (Also, apologies for the horrible, inelegant phrasing and metaphor). But when confronted with the idea of two genders, I tend to really only perceive one gender. People are people, and I am attracted to the ones that I like - girly girls, girly guys, guy-ish girls, guy-ish guys, people that don't associate themselves with girls or guys period... soyeah. That's me. And my ramble on gender that apparently ate up my paragraph.
---
As for the question about coming out of the closet - there are definitely situations in which keeping it to yourself is the better choice. People get throw out of their homes, disowned, attacked, beaten, abused, teased, taunted, raped, and even murdered because of their sexual orientation. Even without that, it does make sense to keep it quiet if you aspire to some sort of position of power, simply because some people are going to oppose you and attempt to undermine you on the grounds that you have a different orientation. Basically, as others have said, it's up to your judgement to tell when it is and is not a good time/place to reveal it.
(I was afraid of being shunned for the first few days after coming out to my parents. It seemed like that was the general atmosphere I was confronted with; luckily, it subsided after a while. 'Though I suspect that the subsiding is, at least on my mom's part, due to her either doing her best not to think about it or pretending that I'm straight. But aside from my parents and a couple of friends, I haven't really come out to anyone. And it's probably going to stay that way for a while, simply because I don't know how most of them will react.)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2010 0:57:32 GMT -5
I post too much on this thread. xD Anyway, I've got a question that you guys MIGHT be able to answer, and its on the topic of coming out. See, from the way you guys talk about it its a HUGE deal (not saying it is or isn't) but the general feeling I get from it is that of, I dunno, like ... confessing. Almost like you've done something awful and you're either covering it up or whatever, because you feel you may be persecuted for it, and often you are.
What I don't get is WHY! Its not a crime (in most countries) and I just don't get why it needs to be such a big deal for your family and friends. Any suggestions on why the world seems so homophobic?
IMHO, coming out shouldn't need to be a big deal at all. >_>
Also, Ithil, you may be interested to know that there are more than two genders physically, as well as psychologically. Something like 1/1000 children are born as physically gender neutral or a combination of both genders, and it used to be that doctors would ask parents to choose the gender of their child. Nowadays they legally must wait until the child is old enough to choose for themselves, and sometimes they don't even make a choice. Its a medical mystery why it happens, but it does, and it might explain why some people feel they've been assigned the wrong body ... maybe they truly were? Though there are plenty of other reasons too. ^^
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Post by Grey on Jul 5, 2010 1:17:02 GMT -5
I post too much on this thread. xD Anyway, I've got a question that you guys MIGHT be able to answer, and its on the topic of coming out. See, from the way you guys talk about it its a HUGE deal (not saying it is or isn't) but the general feeling I get from it is that of, I dunno, like ... confessing. Almost like you've done something awful and you're either covering it up or whatever, because you feel you may be persecuted for it, and often you are. What I don't get is WHY! Its not a crime (in most countries) and I just don't get why it needs to be such a big deal for your family and friends. Any suggestions on why the world seems so homophobic? IMHO, coming out shouldn't need to be a big deal at all. >_> It's not technically a crime in most countries, but there's still societal norms to cope with. Some people find the idea that someone of the same sex might be attracted to them to be really creepy/disgusting. Or they simply find the idea of people that do that at all to be "yucky". Then there are also people that think it immoral to be queer (not just in terms of religion, but also from a scientific perspective [if you take the view that the purpose of life is to procreate]). It's also the idea of having the image of someone that you've known for a long time and thinking that you know them incredibly well, then having that image shattered by the knowledge that maybe you didn't know them as well after all and what if they're a completely different person? And then you feel lied to. Dangit... I had another one, too... oh. Also just the idea of breaking gender roles, which some people are uncomfortable with. 'Least those're my musings on the matter. Not sure how correct they were. (Alsoalso - Sarn. Androgynous people. I did know about them, it's just that they're so rare that nobody really thinks about them. :-D But awesome and thanks. ^_^)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2010 2:14:53 GMT -5
Oh yeah, like I know that people don't like it, what I wanna know is why they don't. I mean, religious/moral reasons exist, but if you've got no moral or religious ideals to follow then why is it a problem?
My personal opinion is that of your average Christian. I don't agree with different sexual orientations, but I don't find it disgusting or anything like that. If you want to live your life like that then that's fine, I'll continue to love and support you as I would anyone else. *shrugs* So I don't really understand why there's such a strong negative reaction to it.
Like ... ok everyone, if you don't agree with me (and you probably won't) then just imagine for a second that God is real and that his written laws in the Bible are true and should be kept. The Bible specifically says homosexuality is wrong, but there are also many other things that are wrong. Homosexuality isn't included in the 10 commandments, but lying is. And yet, when a liar confesses, they're most often forgiven and everyone moves on. Same goes with just about every other "sin" that isn't covered under the law of whatever country you live in. You confess, there may be some consequences, but in the end you're forgiven and you're fine. So why is being queer different?
Also, I say "it" because always writing anything longer is annoying and my fingers won't be un-numb until my surgery. xD;
Oh and I always avoided the word "queer" because it seemed offensive ... is it? If so, forgive me. D: If not then I'm rather surprised. Or is it relative to each person?
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Post by Gav on Jul 5, 2010 5:54:09 GMT -5
There are varying reasons really... but I think I can point out a few. 1. If it's friends, if it's to someone of the same gender, there's a risk they'll get creeped out, or think you're hitting on them. I realize that that's a bit of a double standard in regards to hetero people, but it's not like a guy would go up to a girl and go, "By the way... I'm straight." 2. Family is tricky, because it all depends on them. In some cases, if you're the only child, it might be leery to mention it if they're very hopeful for grandchildren. There's also the issue of them taking it hard about their 'little girl/guy', because parents in general don't like to think of their kids in relationship-y stuff in the first place, so coming right out and saying you would not only be potentially looking for one, but also one of the same gender, might throw them for a loop a bit. 3. The main problem though, I think is that you have no idea how other people would react. Even if the other person is generally really understanding, you might never know if they have a sore spot about the issue, or maybe they are strictly religious about it. (No bashing against religion, but there are people who are very strict and are more of the 'blame the sinner, not the sin' about this stuff) Sometimes you know they'd have a problem with it, and you'd rather just avoid that. I think it really boils down to 'don't ask, don't tell'- if they don't need to know, a lot of people just avoid telling, to avoid potential ugly confrontations. It's kinda like, say, someone who might have been to prison. (Again, strictly hypothetical) They wouldn't just go around telling people, even people they know, because even if they were innocent and they know it, there is a stigma associated with it. And for that matter, the... intimate relations of the nature over here IS illegal, so there's an additonal reason for me to keep mum.
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Post by Goosh on Jul 5, 2010 9:15:44 GMT -5
Oh yeah, like I know that people don't like it, what I wanna know is why they don't. I mean, religious/moral reasons exist, but if you've got no moral or religious ideals to follow then why is it a problem? My personal opinion is that of your average Christian. I don't agree with different sexual orientations, but I don't find it disgusting or anything like that. If you want to live your life like that then that's fine, I'll continue to love and support you as I would anyone else. *shrugs* So I don't really understand why there's such a strong negative reaction to it. Like ... ok everyone, if you don't agree with me (and you probably won't) then just imagine for a second that God is real and that his written laws in the Bible are true and should be kept. The Bible specifically says homosexuality is wrong, but there are also many other things that are wrong. Homosexuality isn't included in the 10 commandments, but lying is. And yet, when a liar confesses, they're most often forgiven and everyone moves on. Same goes with just about every other "sin" that isn't covered under the law of whatever country you live in. You confess, there may be some consequences, but in the end you're forgiven and you're fine. So why is being queer different? Also, I say "it" because always writing anything longer is annoying and my fingers won't be un-numb until my surgery. xD; Oh and I always avoided the word "queer" because it seemed offensive ... is it? If so, forgive me. D: If not then I'm rather surprised. Or is it relative to each person? Some people find the idea of same-sex relationships icky. I know people who aren't religious but still insist that it's "not natural" in some vague weird way, as if automobiles are natural and antibiotics are natural, but this isn't. It's, frankly, rather irritating when people say they don't support who you are and their reasoning is nonsensical and based on a fear of cooties. >_> As for your second question, if someone confesses to be homosexual, well, they're not going to stop just because they've told someone. I'm trying to find a simile to explain it in the context of your biblical scenario, but I don't think you can compare lying and being homosexual. Lying is something one chooses to do, and it almost always has a negative consequence. What negative consequences come from same-sex relationships? As for word choices, it tends to be relative to each person. A lot of people use certain words in an effort to reclaim them and make them less harmful. It's Pride Week in the city currently, and the Dyke March was the other day. Some people would find that offensive, but obviously the people in the parade don't. And it's also often a matter of context. Most people, you know, don't like to be insulted. xD So if you use the word 'queer' to refer to someone not exclusively heterosexual, and not as an epithet, I'm not offended. But if you're unsure, it's easiest to just ask the person if they have a problem with certain words. I've been lurking in this thread for a while. Nick dearest, can you put me on the list? I'm gay, for anyone who doesn't know, and am open to PMs. Oh my I seem to have rambled.
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Post by Fj0rd on Jul 5, 2010 11:55:31 GMT -5
"Queer" is offensive mostly to older LGBT people, so far as I've seen, as it used to be used as a slur a lot. Younger LGBT people, who don't have those connotations so much and who want an 'umbrella term' for all the non-heterosexual, non-cisgendered possibilities (so that they don't have to keep adding letters on to the acronym to include everyone), seem to have reclaimed/adopted it more. (But also I am with Goosh on that everyone gets offended at different things and it is best to ask/make sure with that specific person.)
On why coming out is hard--other people have covered a lot of good points. What I'll also add is that one's sexuality often is a private thing, and coming out requires you to deliberately reveal this private part of yourself to someone else. Which can be hard no matter what it is.
edit: So! Favorite non-straight celebrities, characters, 'ships, books/movies? =D
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Post by Celestial on Jul 5, 2010 12:10:18 GMT -5
So! Favorite non-straight celebrities, characters, 'ships, books/movies? =D *comes out of lurking* Neil Patrick Harris! =D No question about it. And for characters, Captain Jack Harkness. x3 (As well as his actor.)
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Post by Joker on Jul 5, 2010 17:27:53 GMT -5
Interesting thread! Just thought I'd address this as somebody who is not religious, homosexual, or homophobic in any way. (Ideally, I guess you'd need a non-religious, heterosexual, homophobic person to answer it. But ah well. xD) The reason I've heard most often has more of a scientific basis - simply the biological fact that homosexuality doesn't make "sense." I mean, if you think about it, I guess it seems "unnatural" to some people because frankly, a species of homosexual animals (mammals at least) wouldn't last long. I don't agree with anyone who objects to homosexuality, but I think that's as valid a reason as any, including religious beliefs.
Personally, as long as two people are consenting adults, I really don't care what they do. Hey, if somebody wants to marry a cactus, that's fine by me. I don't really see the problem. Anyway, this is a great idea for a thread, and best of luck to everyone on it! =)
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Post by Sock on Jul 5, 2010 18:26:20 GMT -5
There's a term for this and it's called demisexual. Not saying that's definitely what you are, but it sounds like it to me.
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Post by Fj0rd on Jul 5, 2010 19:10:49 GMT -5
Interesting thread! Just thought I'd address this as somebody who is not religious, homosexual, or homophobic in any way. (Ideally, I guess you'd need a non-religious, heterosexual, homophobic person to answer it. But ah well. xD) The reason I've heard most often has more of a scientific basis - simply the biological fact that homosexuality doesn't make "sense." I mean, if you think about it, I guess it seems "unnatural" to some people because frankly, a species of homosexual animals (mammals at least) wouldn't last long. I don't agree with anyone who objects to homosexuality, but I think that's as valid a reason as any, including religious beliefs. Personally, as long as two people are consenting adults, I really don't care what they do. Hey, if somebody wants to marry a cactus, that's fine by me. I don't really see the problem. Anyway, this is a great idea for a thread, and best of luck to everyone on it! =) Then there are studies like this... *shrugs* I'd object to someone marrying a cactus, on the grounds that cacti aren't consenting adults. XD But yeah, the "consenting adults can do whatever they want to" is kind of my guideline as well. Sock--demisexual? Neat. I love how you can find a new word and suddenly have several new wholly different ways to think about yourself. *subsides into lurkery, pondering*
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Post by Sock on Jul 5, 2010 20:50:40 GMT -5
Sock--demisexual? Neat. I love how you can find a new word and suddenly have several new wholly different ways to think about yourself. *subsides into lurkery, pondering* Yes indeed! You can find out more about it here.
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